Landfall Cat 5s

[MGC]

I've witnessed the damage from both Camille and Katrina first hand. Katrina was worst than Camille only because the surge was higher and far reaching along the coast. Camille hit the Mississippi coast with a CP of 905mb while Katrina was 929mb. Considering Camille had a much smaller eye and a CP some 24mb lower, Camille was without question more intense than Katrina. No wind recording instruments survived either Camille or Katrina so landfall max wind speed can only be estimated. The exact value will never be known. Personally, I think Camille had winds near what Andrew had. It is quite possible they could have been slightly less. I still consider Camille a more intense hurricane than Andrew based on CP. It will be interesting to see how the NHC ranks Katrina. Katrina may be the strongest Cat-3 hurricane to ever hit America.......MGC

[f5]

Katrina used all her energy pushing water.Katrina 927 mb pressure was due to her enormous size i think.Carla was 931 mb a 150 mph CAT 4 when she hit the Texas coast

[wxmann_91]

a hit at peak intensity is impossable no matter how perfect the enviroment.Charley and Andrew were strengthing upon landfall but they could of been stronger for example Charley could of went into Tampa bay at 170 mph sustained winds if he had more time Andrew could of been 175 to 180 mph sustained if it weren't for the Bahamas in his way

Very good point. Remember that landfall only occurs after half of the eye has crossed the coast. That means half of the eye is over land and half of it is over not-so-deep and not-so-high-HC waters. Almost impossible for a hurricane to not weaken as it approaches land unless it makes landfall in deep waters - the likes of which are only found on Caribbean coastlines. Pretty much what it means is that in the GOM or the Atlantic, landfall at peak strength can only be on an island or in the Caribbean.

[Brent]

what strange is Katrina was worst then Andrew,Camille.the 1935 labor day hurricane was lucky enough to hit a chain of islands while strengthing.Camille may have had 230 mph wind gust but Katrina's storm surge makes the damage looks like an F-5 tornado went through there.

One word: Size... Andrew was TINY. Camille was much smaller than Katrina as well.

[Forecaster Colby]

The discussion when Katrina peaked:

Katrina is now comparable in intensity to Camille of 1969...only larger

[quandary]

a hit at peak intensity is impossable no matter how perfect the enviroment.Charley and Andrew were strengthing upon landfall but they could of been stronger for example Charley could of went into Tampa bay at 170 mph sustained winds if he had more time Andrew could of been 175 to 180 mph sustained if it weren't for the Bahamas in his way

Charley did hit the coast at its peak intensity of 150mph. It then hit Port Charlotte near peak intensity at 145mph.

[Forecaster Colby]

But Charley COULD have intensified further had it remained over water, which was what he was trying to say.

[Derek Ortt]

I dont think it would have intensified further. The thing was not exactly the most tropical of cyclones just 3 hours after landfall, and was badly sheared when it emerged into the Atlantic just 7 hours after landfall

[wxmann_91]

I dont think it would have intensified further. The thing was not exactly the most tropical of cyclones just 3 hours after landfall, and was badly sheared when it emerged into the Atlantic just 7 hours after landfall

I agree, and in fact, had it moved more to the north, I believe it would've done the "N. GOM shear kicked the storm's butt right before landfall" maneuver again.

[f5]

what i was trying to say is if the trough were about another 100 miles farther north Charley would of went into Tampa bay as a CAT 5 he just need to gain 6 mph in sustained winds

[Forecaster Colby]

I certainly don't think Charley would have weakened, at least not enough to make a difference. It was moving very quickly, and you don't go from RIC to RWC in three hours.

[tornadotony]

I have heard and read several places of a 247 MPH gust recorded in Camille. I will look for it, and if I come across it, I will post it.

[Jim Cantore]

But weren't Camille's winds estimated at around 190mph. Likewise, her pressure was 909mb at landfall and she was a small storm. Wouldn't this make it very likely, even with small standard of deviation errors, for Camille to be a Cat 5? Were there any land reports of extremely high winds justifying or denying Camille as a Cat 5? Surge cannot be compared to Ivan or Katrina because they were very large storms.

Katrina was 918 mb and a weak Cat 4. Wilma was <900 mb and Cat 4 at one time, and remember that Wilma had a very small windfield. It depends if the obs during Camille were gusts or sustained winds. 190 mph gusts correlate to Cat 4 sustained winds.

I've read from Camille that there was a 224mph wind gust in Biloxi

[Extremeweatherguy]

I have heard and read several places of a 247 MPH gust recorded in Camille. I will look for it, and if I come across it, I will post it.

I doubt that wind gusts hit 247mph from Camille. That seems very extreme...even for a Category 5 storm. How accurate were wind observations when Camille hit? and did any wind instruments even survive? I think any gust to that magnitude would have to be an estimate (which was probably wrong since I do not know of too many people that know what a 247mph gust looks like).

[gatorcane]

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject:

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a hit at peak intensity is impossable no matter how perfect the enviroment.Charley and Andrew were strengthing upon landfall but they could of been stronger for example Charley could of went into Tampa bay at 170 mph sustained winds if he had more time Andrew could of been 175 to 180 mph sustained if it weren't for the Bahamas in his way

The Bahamas don't do much to weaken a hurricane - it's a BIG misconception. Water temps around the Bahamas are the warmest in the entire Atlantic Basic...

About Charley - it's another misconception -- had Charley been on a track toward Tampa, the approaching trough would be much closer -- and thus would have induced shear somewhat earlier. In additon if we extrapolate out the data, Charley would be undergoing an eye replacement cycle near Tampa Bay, thus not allowing it to strengthen.

Nonetheless, the damage totals would have been FAR greater had it taken it's predicted path...because it is much more densely populated in Tampa Bay and the storm surge is far greater due to the geographic setup.

[docjoe]

I have heard and read several places of a 247 MPH gust recorded in Camille. I will look for it, and if I come across it, I will post it.

I doubt that wind gusts hit 247mph from Camille. That seems very extreme...even for a Category 5 storm. How accurate were wind observations when Camille hit? and did any wind instruments even survive? I think any gust to that magnitude would have to be an estimate (which was probably wrong since I do not know of too many people that know what a 247mph gust looks like).

Here is a link to the F5 tornado that hit Jefferson county Alabama april 1998. I grew up here although my neighborhood was about 3 miles from the path as the crow flies. Some estimates of the wind were up to or even possibly above 300MPH. I saw where concrete slabs were pulled out of the ground and where it crossed roadways the asphalt was scoured away. It was a very destructive storm that took 30+ lives. It does give some indication as to gusts mentioned in this post could do.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/bmx/april_08_19 ... _1998.html


docjoe

[wxmann_91]

The Bahamas don't do much to weaken a hurricane - it's a BIG misconception. Water temps around the Bahamas are the warmest in the entire Atlantic Basic...

True, since they are small land masses, but there is a limit. Problem is the Heat Content. A hurricane stalling over the Bahamas could weaken as it upwells cooler water and starts interacting with the land masses (even if they are small). Good example of that is Frances.

[Jim Cantore]

The Bahamas don't do much to weaken a hurricane - it's a BIG misconception. Water temps around the Bahamas are the warmest in the entire Atlantic Basic...

True, since they are small land masses, but there is a limit. Problem is the Heat Content. A hurricane stalling over the Bahamas could weaken as it upwells cooler water and starts interacting with the land masses (even if they are small). Good example of that is Frances.

Same problem as the northen GOM, Shallow water