"Super el Nino" this year?

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"Super el Nino" this year?

#1 Postby x-y-no » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:10 am

Well ... I'm skeptical. In particular, one of the features they cite as suggestive of an impending el Nino (the warm SST anomaly which developed off the South American coast in February, and the correlated migration of the cool anomaly across the date line) has since disappeared.

The basic reasoning behind arguing that we're headed for another very large el Nino in the not too distant future is pretty persuasive, though.

ftp://ftp.giss.nasa.gov/outgoing/JEH/bams_29mar20062_all.pdf

("Spotlight on Global Temperature" by James Hansen, Makiko Sato, Reto Ruedy, Ken Lo, David Lea and Martin Medina-Elizalde) - DRAFT

An excerpt:

In the "normal", La Nina, phase of ENSO the east-to-west trade winds push warm equatorial surface waters far to the west such that some of the warmest SSTs on the planet are located in the West Pacific Warm Pool. In this normal state the thermocline is shallow in the East Pacific near the coast of South America, where upwelling of cold deep water occurs, and deep in the West Pacific (Fig. 2 of Cane 2005). Associated with this tropical SST gradient across the Pacific is a longitudinal circulation pattern in the atmosphere, the Walker Cell, with generally rising motions and heavy rainfall in the West Pacific and sinking motions and drier conditions in the East Pacific. This Walker circulation enhances upwelling in the East Pacific, causing a powerful positive feedback, the Bjerknes (1969) feedback, which tends to maintain the La Nina phase, as the temperature gradient and the resulting higher pressure in the East Pacific support east-to-west trade winds.

This normal state is occasionally upset when, by chance, the east-to-west trade winds slow down, allowing the warm water piled up in the west to slosh back in the direction of South America. If the chance fluctuation is large enough, the Walker circulation breaks down and the Bjerknes feedback loses power. As the east-to-west winds weaken, the Bjerknes feedback works in reverse, and warm waters move more strongly toward South America, reducing the thermocline tilt and cutting off the upwelling of cold water along the South American coast. In this way a classical El Nino is born.

Given the high degree of chaos in weather and climate, there is great variability among El Ninos and some arbitrariness in the definition of when one has occurred. Enough time since the preceding El Nino needs to elapse for the West Pacific to "recharge" with warm water and for the thermocline to regain its strong tilt such that it is deep in the West Pacific and approaches the surface near South America. An El Nino has the best chance of forming in Northern Hemisphere spring, when the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) is close to the equator, SST is a maximum, and equatorial upwelling is weakest. Thus, as Mark Cane (priv. comm.) has stated, once the West Pacific is recharged, we can think of Mother Nature as "rolling the dice" each spring to see if there will be an El Nino.

Figure 3a shows global surface temperature in a six-month period (September 1996 through February 1997) preceding the 1997-1998 El Nino (Fig. 3b). The temperature pattern in the equatorial Pacific region in September 2005 through February 2006 (Fig. 3c) is nearly identical to that of nine years earlier. Subsurface temperatures are now "recharged", i.e., the ocean is ready to launch the next El Nino (http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/realtime.html).

Figure 3d, the temperature anomaly for the most recent month (February 2006), shows that a substantial warm SST anomaly has appeared near South America, comparable in strength to the warm anomaly that appeared in March 1997. Coupled with the movement of the cool anomaly across the date line (Fig. 3d), the temperature gradient along the equator is now such that it should weaken the Walker Circulation and the Bjerknes feedback. Thus we suggest that there is a high probability that an El Nino will develop in 2006. Warm anomalies near Peru are not uncommon in La Nina years, but this anomaly is already substantial in February.


Here is the referenced "Figure 3"

Image
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#2 Postby gatorcane » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:16 am

What a great read! It certainly seems possible. When will we know for certain if there will be this El Nino though?
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#3 Postby DoctorHurricane2003 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:18 pm

I'm definitely going to have to disagree with the statement that it the equatorial EPAC is in a similar state as of Feb 2006 compared to Mar 1997, below is an excerpt from http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/data/indices/sstoi.indices

Code: Select all

YR   MON  NINO1+2   ANOM   NINO3    ANOM   NINO4    ANOM NINO3.4    ANOM
1997   1   23.67   -0.75   24.70   -0.91   28.41    0.27   25.96   -0.55
1997   2   25.74   -0.23   25.75   -0.61   28.33    0.32   26.36   -0.33
1997   3   26.95    0.59   26.98   -0.11   28.52    0.43   27.03   -0.11
1997   4   26.64    1.30   27.59    0.18   29.32    0.91   28.03    0.34
1997   5   26.71    2.47   28.06    1.00   29.45    0.81   28.60    0.84
1997   6   26.27    3.31   28.14    1.76   29.40    0.76   28.94    1.45
1997   7   25.59    3.79   28.01    2.43   29.50    0.92   28.92    1.85
1997   8   24.80    4.01   27.84    2.89   29.26    0.80   28.84    2.14
1997   9   24.40    3.96   27.84    3.01   29.32    0.84   28.93    2.29
1997  10   24.58    3.69   28.17    3.29   29.32    0.91   29.23    2.64
1997  11   25.63    3.99   28.55    3.59   29.49    1.13   29.32    2.80
1997  12   26.92    4.13   28.76    3.68   29.32    1.04   29.26    2.78
-----
2006   1   24.33   -0.18   25.00   -0.62   27.68   -0.46   25.64   -0.87
2006   2   26.46    0.43   26.08   -0.28   27.39   -0.62   26.08   -0.61
2006   3   26.82    0.34   26.51   -0.57   27.77   -0.33   26.54   -0.61


One key difference is how the Nino 4 Anomalies are positive in 03/1997, but negative in 02-03/2006.

So far, I am not too sure how they came up with their conclusions as there is not yet a significant statistical trend to declare that an El Nino may be forming.
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#4 Postby x-y-no » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:34 pm

DoctorHurricane2003 wrote:I'm definitely going to have to disagree with the statement that it the equatorial EPAC is in a similar state as of Feb 2006 compared to Mar 1997 ...


Well, to be fair I don't think they asserted quite that. They say that "The temperature pattern in the equatorial Pacific region in September 2005 through February 2006 (Fig. 3c) is nearly identical to that of nine years earlier" (regarding the 5 month average across the whole basin) and that "the temperature anomaly for the most recent month (February 2006), shows that a substantial warm SST anomaly has appeared near South America, comparable in strength to the warm anomaly that appeared in March 1997" (which refers only to the region just off the SA coast) Of course as I pointed out above, that anomaly has since disappeared, which reinforces your point that the years do not seem to be correlating so well any more.



So far, I am not too sure how they came up with their conclusions as there is not yet a significant statistical trend to declare that an El Nino may be forming.


I'm inclined to agree as regards this year. However, I think they make a persuasive argument that when we do get the next el Nino, it will be a very large one.
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#5 Postby x-y-no » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:41 pm

boca_chris wrote:What a great read! It certainly seems possible. When will we know for certain if there will be this El Nino though?


Late spring is the tipping point. Remember last year there was lots of discussion of the Kelvin wave which propagated into the EPAC and how that might flip us into el Nino (I argued that it would not). This year, the WPAC warm pool is even larger, but as yet we've had no similar strong Kelvin wave event. I'm watching the MJO for indication we might get one. So far I see no signs of it, but forecast confidence is at its lowest ebb for the next month and a half or so.
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#6 Postby MWatkins » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:54 pm

Of all folks who know more about this stuff than I do, I completely respect your opinion on this topic Jan. However, there is one significant omission/methodology issue I have with their analysis. These conclusions about El Nino seem to be entirely based on what is going on at the surface, and not on anything that could be happening subsurface.

Subsurface, the picture between spring 1997 and spring 2006 is significantly different.

By Feburary 1997, subsurface warming had spread across the central Pacific and was already starting to make it’s way up along the south America coast.

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_08.html

And by April, 1997, subsurface temps were starting to reach unheard of temps in the entire eastern half of the Pacific basin:

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_16.html

None of this is happening now. In fact…there is little net change in the last 3 months…and there are no signs at all of warm anoms propigating over:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/sub_surf_mar.gif

In fact, these folks are putting a lot of faith on the following assumption, which seems to be the basis to link “Super Ninos” with Global Warming:

Figure 3d, the temperature anomaly for the most recent month (February 2006), shows that a substantial warm SST anomaly has appeared near South America, comparable in strength to the warm anomaly that appeared in March 1997. Coupled with the movement of the cool anomaly across the date line (Fig. 3d), the temperature gradient along the equator is now such that it should weaken the Walker Circulation and the Bjerknes feedback. Thus we suggest that there is a high probability that an El Nino will develop in 2006. Warm anomalies near Peru are not uncommon in La Nina years, but this anomaly is already substantial in February.


The Walker Circulation is showing no sings of breaking down, and in fact indirect data from April 7th is indicative of another push of cold water away from the South American coast:

http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/d ... 7.2006.gif

This season, the surface warming we did see occurred in the far eastern part of the basin, and may have been a result of some unusual troughiness further east, which may have transported warmer water from the north down to near the equator.

In any event, this paper seems like a weak link at best, and does nothing to address any physical mechanisims that may be responsible for what we are seeing. In essence, the argument is “the maps from 1997 and 2006 look similar, and we had a strong nino in 1997, so there must be one coming in 2006”. Also, that private comment as a reference is hardly compelling. Although Mr. Cane is a renown expert in the field of oceanography and specifically El Nino, he did not make their argument. His comment, once the ocean is recharged is not at all liked to the assertion that all of this is happening now.

MW
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#7 Postby Gtmalacd » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:56 pm

Well, I think an EL NINO event will pop its head out, I don't think it will be this year, and if it is, then it will be later in the year such as October time frame. Interesting nevertheless.
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#8 Postby CHRISTY » Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:59 pm

MWatkins wrote:Of all folks who know more about this stuff than I do, I completely respect your opinion on this topic Jan. However, there is one significant omission/methodology issue I have with their analysis. These conclusions about El Nino seem to be entirely based on what is going on at the surface, and not on anything that could be happening subsurface.

Subsurface, the picture between spring 1997 and spring 2006 is significantly different.

By Feburary 1997, subsurface warming had spread across the central Pacific and was already starting to make it’s way up along the south America coast.

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_08.html

And by April, 1997, subsurface temps were starting to reach unheard of temps in the entire eastern half of the Pacific basin:

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_16.html

None of this is happening now. In fact…there is little net change in the last 3 months…and there are no signs at all of warm anoms propigating over:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/sub_surf_mar.gif

In fact, these folks are putting a lot of faith on the following assumption, which seems to be the basis to link “Super Ninos” with Global Warming:

Figure 3d, the temperature anomaly for the most recent month (February 2006), shows that a substantial warm SST anomaly has appeared near South America, comparable in strength to the warm anomaly that appeared in March 1997. Coupled with the movement of the cool anomaly across the date line (Fig. 3d), the temperature gradient along the equator is now such that it should weaken the Walker Circulation and the Bjerknes feedback. Thus we suggest that there is a high probability that an El Nino will develop in 2006. Warm anomalies near Peru are not uncommon in La Nina years, but this anomaly is already substantial in February.


The Walker Circulation is showing no sings of breaking down, and in fact indirect data from April 7th is indicative of another push of cold water away from the South American coast:

http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/d ... 7.2006.gif

This season, the surface warming we did see occurred in the far eastern part of the basin, and may have been a result of some unusual troughiness further east, which may have transported warmer water from the north down to near the equator.

In any event, this paper seems like a weak link at best, and does nothing to address any physical mechanisims that may be responsible for what we are seeing. In essence, the argument is “the maps from 1997 and 2006 look similar, and we had a strong nino in 1997, so there must be one coming in 2006”. Also, that private comment as a reference is hardly compelling. Although Mr. Cane is a renown expert in the field of oceanography and specifically El Nino, he did not make their argument. His comment, once the ocean is recharged is not at all liked to the assertion that all of this is happening now.

MW
so mike what are u saying la nina might persist or will we in NEUTRAL conditions accur sonner rather than later?
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#9 Postby x-y-no » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:03 pm

MWatkins wrote:Of all folks who know more about this stuff than I do, I completely respect your opinion on this topic Jan. However, there is one significant omission/methodology issue I have with their analysis. These conclusions about El Nino seem to be entirely based on what is going on at the surface, and not on anything that could be happening subsurface.

Subsurface, the picture between spring 1997 and spring 2006 is significantly different.

By Feburary 1997, subsurface warming had spread across the central Pacific and was already starting to make it’s way up along the south America coast.

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_08.html

And by April, 1997, subsurface temps were starting to reach unheard of temps in the entire eastern half of the Pacific basin:

http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~pierce/elnino/ ... 97_16.html

None of this is happening now. In fact…there is little net change in the last 3 months…and there are no signs at all of warm anoms propigating over:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/sub_surf_mar.gif


Yes, that's a very good point. I've been watching the equatorial depth profile all winter and spring, and while the warm pool in the west is impressve (more so than last year even) there has been no sign at all of anything propagating eastward. That's why I remain very doubtful we'll see an el Nino this year.

In fact, these folks are putting a lot of faith on the following assumption, which seems to be the basis to link “Super Ninos” with Global Warming:

Figure 3d, the temperature anomaly for the most recent month (February 2006), shows that a substantial warm SST anomaly has appeared near South America, comparable in strength to the warm anomaly that appeared in March 1997. Coupled with the movement of the cool anomaly across the date line (Fig. 3d), the temperature gradient along the equator is now such that it should weaken the Walker Circulation and the Bjerknes feedback. Thus we suggest that there is a high probability that an El Nino will develop in 2006. Warm anomalies near Peru are not uncommon in La Nina years, but this anomaly is already substantial in February.


The Walker Circulation is showing no sings of breaking down, and in fact indirect data from April 7th is indicative of another push of cold water away from the South American coast:

http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/d ... 7.2006.gif


Yes, and as I noted, this warm anomaly has dissipated.

This season, the surface warming we did see occurred in the far eastern part of the basin, and may have been a result of some unusual troughiness further east, which may have transported warmer water from the north down to near the equator.


That's a likely notion. Maybe I'll see what I can dig up with regard to that next weekend. There won't have been an actual southward transport in that region, but even a slow-down due to anomalous mean surface winds could well have caused it. The alternative possibility is if there were a substantially unusual cloud pattern.


In any event, this paper seems like a weak link at best, and does nothing to address any physical mechanisims that may be responsible for what we are seeing. In essence, the argument is “the maps from 1997 and 2006 look similar, and we had a strong nino in 1997, so there must be one coming in 2006”. Also, that private comment as a reference is hardly compelling. Although Mr. Cane is a renown expert in the field of oceanography and specifically El Nino, he did not make their argument. His comment, once the ocean is recharged is not at all liked to the assertion that all of this is happening now.

MW


Yeah, we can't know the full context of that private communication, but I suspect he was only referring to the strong and deep warm anomaly in the west. To the extent that continues, we are likely in for a strong el Nino once it happens (whether as strong as '97 - who knows) but again I don't think it'll be this year.

I agree that SSTs alone are inadequate - one needs to look at the depth of the thermocline as well to really understand what's going on.
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#10 Postby Scorpion » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:41 pm

Right...There is 0% chance of any El Nino forming.
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#11 Postby gatorcane » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:50 pm

Right...There is 0% chance of any El Nino forming.



I don't know the article sounds persuasive. I'd say there is more than a 0% chance.
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#12 Postby gatorcane » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:50 pm

Right...There is 0% chance of any El Nino forming.



I don't know the article sounds persuasive. I'd say there is more than a 0% chance.
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#13 Postby Scorpion » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:52 pm

Last year at this time we were thinking of a huge El Nino forming, and the Kelvin Wave was already moving. If anything, a Kelvin wave this year would provide slightly positive neutral conditions.
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#14 Postby MiamiensisWx » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:57 pm

boca_chris wrote:I don't know the article sounds persuasive. I'd say there is more than a 0% chance.


I tend to agree. Anything is possible, especially with all the uncertainty.
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#15 Postby Hybridstorm_November2001 » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:26 pm

I say maybe starting by Winter; say November or December. Either way the Hurricane Season will be pretty much over by that time, thus it is nothing for us to be concerned with in the short term. It is a non-event until at least the end of the year.
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#16 Postby MGC » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:26 pm

There is always a greater probility than 0% that an event will happen. I'd speculate that there is a 25% probility that an El Nino developes by the fall, a 50% probility that conditions remain neutral and a 25% probility that a stronger La Nina developes. I disagree with the author's contention that a "Super El Nino" will be in place this fall.....MGC
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#17 Postby benny » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:40 pm

After reading that article...

I think they are just trying to highlight the possibility of another strong El Nino. Now I don't think spring 1997 and spring 2006 look anything alike myself. Their figures were not exactly convincing. As someone else already pointed out... Nino 4 is rather cool and is staying cool... most El Ninos have started from the west rather than east in the past 20 years. The trades will have to die especially in the WPac for me to take much notice. The last El Nino was 2004-2005... it seems a little premature to think it will be this winter. I am guessing that 2007 will have a decent chance of El Nino though... especially with the warm pool amassing. It is tough (but not unprecedented) to have a Nino year, followed by Nina then to Nino again (63-65 is an example). If the Nino is going to get started.. it had better hurry. Usually westerly wind burst precede the formation of El Nino. There really haven't been any this winter.. check out:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/a ... 850a_c.gif

Usually the anomalous westerly winds (reddish colors) will begin to stretch across the Dateline near the equator before an El Nino forms. You will see this in angular mometum fields as well:

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/images/aam/glaam.gif

Basically above zero is associated with global westerly wind anomalies. You can see the blue shading near the equator showing the ely wind anomalies. The trend has actually been negative for the past year or so... (with a 30-45 day wave (MJO) evident in the timeseries as well). What I think is that after the spring passes... we will start to see the SSTs decrease in the ENSO regions. Right now the double ITCZ structure and the max solar heating is really messing with the circulation. However it seems to be a local phenomenon rather than basin-wide. I've said enough :) Basically I think that next year will be the El Nino not this one...
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#18 Postby caribepr » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:34 pm

MGC wrote:There is always a greater probility than 0% that an event will happen. I'd speculate that there is a 25% probility that an El Nino developes by the fall, a 50% probility that conditions remain neutral and a 25% probility that a stronger La Nina developes. I disagree with the author's contention that a "Super El Nino" will be in place this fall.....MGC


I'm not sure about what might happen, but I will chime in with strong agreement on the reality that there is very, VERY rarely (in weather, and in anything naturally occuring) a 0 percent chance of something not happening or happening. I thought we learned that already!
If there is one thing I hope to see on s2k this season, it is the absence of absolute statements. For me, that shows a huge lack of knowledge about weather (and life). Seriously good predictions always leave out absolutes...in my opinion. Alarmists may like absolutes, or those extremely afraid of terrible repeats of what happened in the past...but reality is, we get as close as science takes us and the rest is up to ...whoever you think controls the weather.
To a safe and secure season for all of us! And happy Semana Santa!
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#19 Postby Jim Cantore » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:43 pm

I dont see a El Nino forming anytime soon, La Nina is in control right now but dont the two events useually follow each other?
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#20 Postby cycloneye » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:47 pm

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/coupled_model/poama.shtml

:uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow:

Jan the guy who wrote the article maybe saw the POAMA model which is bullish about warm ENSO by the fall for the past 2 months.
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