Delta pilots authorize strike

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gtalum
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#41 Postby gtalum » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:13 am

alicia-w wrote:i do not agree that the health of Delta relies on the salaries of pilots. If the company is bankrupt, it isnt because they paid their pilots too much. It's because their management allowed the company to run into the ground.


There is some truth in what you say. The management under Leo Mullins was atrocious, and he took the company for all it was worth befor eleaving with his own golden parachute. However, there is new management, who is making strides at improving the airline and its business model.

The fact remains that Delta's pilots are the highest paid in the industry by a large margin, and would still be near the top after the cuts Delta was asking for (and presumably under whatever tentative deal they struck this weekend).

The pilots' salaries are not enough in themselves to make or break Delta's fortunes in gettin gout of bankruptcy, but they are one facet of the airline's financial problems.

In the end, even if Delta liquidates it won't do much but prop up the remaining airlines. Some towns in the Southeast will lose service forever, but all fo the proiftable routes will get picked up by other airlines. Delta's pilots, however, would never work as "major" pilots again since all of the other airlines have their own furloughed pilots that they must rehire before looking elsewhere.

The hubris of a group of 5,000 that is willing to put 35,000 people out of work for their own selfish reasons is sobering.

I'm glad they worked out a deal, it's best for everyone.
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#42 Postby nystate » Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:51 am

Actually they are worse than glofified bus drivers. Bus drivers actually drive buses. Pilots push a few buttons and then sit back and relax the whole way. Trained monkeys could do their jobs.


Riiiiight. Lets take a poll, how many people on this board would fly on an airliner with monkeys at the controls...

Anyone?

No one?

What about a bus driver up front?

Anyone?

No one?

Hmm.......

There's a reason that there hasn't been a major airliner crash in the US in going on 5 years- better training combined with a reduction in older, more unsafe aircraft. Start putting bus drivers in airliners and I guarantee you that we will have 2 or 3 major crashes a day. Sort of like asking a paramedic to perform brain surgery.
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#43 Postby GalvestonDuck » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:07 am

Actually, there have been a few crashes within the past five years. However, by "major airliner crash" are you saying "major" to describe the crash or "major" to describe the airliner? I suppose if you're referring to the crashes being major (as in, all souls on board perished and total loss of aircraft), then yeah, you have a point. :)

However, there was an accident last December in Chicago where the plane crashed into a vehicle and killed a little boy.
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=79304

Then again, there was also the JetBlue incident in September where everyone miraculously survived. :)
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=75132
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#44 Postby nystate » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:17 am

GalvestonDuck wrote:Actually, there have been a few crashes within the past five years. However, by "major airliner crash" are you saying "major" to describe the crash or "major" to describe the airliner? I suppose if you're referring to the crashes being major (as in, all souls on board perished and total loss of aircraft), then yeah, you have a point. :)

However, there was an accident last December in Chicago where the plane crashed into a vehicle and killed a little boy.
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=79304

Then again, there was also the JetBlue incident in September where everyone miraculously survived. :)
http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=75132


I'm referring to major as in major airliner crashes; ie dozens of people killed. The last time we had an accident of that magnitude was AA 587 in 2001.

About that Jetblue incident-

How different would the outcome have been if there were two bus drivers up front? No one would have walked away from that incident; rather, hundreds of people would be reduced to a smoking hole in the ground. That is a fact that Gtalum seems to ignore...
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#45 Postby gtalum » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:29 am

There was nothing exceptional in that JetBlue incident. Anyone trained to put the plane down in a straight line could have done so just as well as the pilot who actually did it.

Pilots are seriously overcompensated for what they do. The economy is finally figuring that out, and that's why their pay is dropping.
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#46 Postby Lindaloo » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:30 am

I agree with you about the pilots being overcompensated.
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#47 Postby Gtmalacd » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:21 am

gtalum wrote:There was nothing exceptional in that JetBlue incident. Anyone trained to put the plane down in a straight line could have done so just as well as the pilot who actually did it.

Pilots are seriously overcompensated for what they do. The economy is finally figuring that out, and that's why their pay is dropping.


gtalum and Lindaloo, both of you are going down the wrong tree here. Pilots are overcompensated for what they do. Pilots are paid to what the economy can bear. It is the CEO'S and Management that are overcompensated. I doubt you ever flow one before right gtalum? I have never flown one, but I did sit in the cockpit going to Nicaragua and I'll tell you its complicated, but when you have been doing it for awhile, it's easy stuff.
Last edited by Gtmalacd on Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#48 Postby george_r_1961 » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:22 am

Lindaloo wrote:I agree with you about the pilots being overcompensated.


Sorry I dont have any links to back this up but im sure airline execs are still getting their outrageous salaries and bonuses while the pilots are asked to take a cut in pay and benefits. Cant run an airline without pilots.
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#49 Postby Lindaloo » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:28 am

I see your point george.
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#50 Postby gtalum » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:30 am

Gtmalacd wrote:gtalum and Lindaloo, both of you are going down the wrong tree here. Pilots are overcompensated for what they do. Pilots are paid to what the economy can bear. It is the CEO'S and Management that are overcompensated.


Actually pilots at the "major" airlines are paid what the market coul dbear in the late 1990's. They are slowly being brough back to what the economy can bear right now, but they're not there yet.

Airline management is probably overcompensated, but when you look at the numbers they are less overcompensated than the management of other similarly sized corporations.

I doubt you ever flow one before right gtalum? I have never flown one, but I did sit in the cockpit going to Nicaragua and I'll tell you its complicated, but when you have been doing it for awhile, it's easy stuff.


I have flown a private plane before, but never commercial of course. It's a matter of rote memorization. In fact, these days, they pretty much set all the dials and computers before flight and generally never touch the controls during cruise.
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#51 Postby george_r_1961 » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:30 am

Lindaloo wrote:I see your point george.


Thanks Linda. I think if execs of all major companies, not just airlines, could think beyond their next bonus check there wouldnt be as many of them going defunct.
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#52 Postby gtalum » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:31 am

george_r_1961 wrote:Sorry I dont have any links to back this up but im sure airline execs are still getting their outrageous salaries and bonuses while the pilots are asked to take a cut in pay and benefits. Cant run an airline without pilots.


Funny you should mention it... Gerald Grinstein, Delta's CEO, hasn't taken a salary or bonus yet in the 3 years he's been in charge. ;)
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#53 Postby george_r_1961 » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:33 am

gtalum wrote:
george_r_1961 wrote:Sorry I dont have any links to back this up but im sure airline execs are still getting their outrageous salaries and bonuses while the pilots are asked to take a cut in pay and benefits. Cant run an airline without pilots.


Funny you should mention it... Gerald Grinstein, Delta's CEO, hasn't taken a salary or bonus yet in the 2 years he's been in charge. ;)


Well hes one of the few if not the only one. Most execs seem to lack the ability to think in the long term and then when their companies go belly up they wonder why :roll:
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#54 Postby gtalum » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:38 am

CEO's often are overcompensated, that's for sure. However, that's a whole different thread topic. Management compensation at an airline is a tiny percentage of pilot compensation, simply because of the relative sizes of the two groups. So you can completely eliminate management pay and you only save a small amount of cash. By making a 19% pay cut to the pilots' salaries, they save the airline ~10% of it's projected operating loss.

What truly ails the major airlines today is that they still operate on to some extent a pre-1978 (deregulation) mentality. That's impossible in the relatively open commodity market that the airline business is now, especially so with the super-educated customers who have nearly perfect pricing information via the internet.

Everyone has to take paycuts to make it all work. What you don't hear abotu at Delta is the large paycuts everyone else in the company took while the pilots have been dragging their feet.
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#55 Postby george_r_1961 » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:48 am

gtalum wrote:CEO's often are overcompensated, that's for sure. However, that's a whole different thread topic. Management compensation at an airline is a tiny percentage of pilot compensation, simply because of the relative sizes of the two groups. So you can completely eliminate management pay and you only save a small amount of cash. By making a 19% pay cut to the pilots' salaries, they save the airline ~10% of it's projected operating loss.

What truly ails the major airlines today is that they still operate on to some extent a pre-1978 (deregulation) mentality. That's impossible in the relatively open commodity market that the airline business is now, especially so with the super-educated customers who have nearly perfect pricing information via the internet.
Everyone has to take paycuts to make it all work. What you don't hear abotu at Delta is the large paycuts everyone else in the company took while the pilots have been dragging their feet.


Well that part I have to agree with. Good post.
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#56 Postby nystate » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:17 pm

There was nothing exceptional in that JetBlue incident. Anyone trained to put the plane down in a straight line could have done so just as well as the pilot who actually did it.


Not true to an extent. Any pilot trained to put the plane down in a straight line could have done so. It takes thousands and thousands of hours to get to that proficiency.

Another example- The United DC-10 that crashed in Sioux City after losing all hydraulics. Anyone other than a skilled crew of pilots up front would have put that plane into the ground within minutes, killing all on board.

Another example- The DHL A300 crew that was hit by a missile flying from Baghdad in the beginning of the war. They put the plane on the ground safely, while anyone else would have turned the neighborhood below into mangled pieces of charred wreckage.

These aren't bus drivers. They are aviators. Most people could probably follow a step-by-step detailed instruction booklet on how to safely fly an airliner. Just like most people could perform heart surgery if they followed carefully designed steps that told them precisely what to do and when to do it. Pilots make their money when things go wrong. If you have an engine failure shortly after takeoff, you can't afford to dig through the manuals and read what to do. You have to know what to do. If your electronics fail, you can't afford to not be able to calculate how much your airplane is going to weigh when you land on the runway. If you are off by even a fraction the landing gear could collapse and everyone onboard your plane would be finished. If you are hit by a SAM and lose hydraulics, you can't afford to not know what to do. There are counltess emergencies that pilots must be ready for; if you put just anyone up front when things don't go according to plan hundreds of people will be killed. That is why it takes thousands of hours of flying experience to get an airline job. You start out making $14,000 a year teaching students in Cessnas. Thirty years later you are at $300,000 a year, because there are few people in the world with your experience level.

If a bus driver messes up they get in a fender bender. If a pilot messes up hundreds, perhaps thousands in worst-case scenarios, will b e killed. Airline pilots are held up to a much higher standard, and they deserve to be paid as such.

It's a matter of rote memorization. In fact, these days, they pretty much set all the dials and computers before flight and generally never touch the controls during cruise.


Once again, pilots get their big bucks when things go wrong.

Also, a question for those of you who think pilots are overpaid-

How much should they make? Here's a common example-

757 Captain for a major US Airline. He has been working with the airline for 20 years. Let's say he is a graduate of a state college, who paid $50,000 for his education there. After college he spent upwards of $100,000 training to become an airline pilot, renting aircraft, and gaining experience. How much should he make?
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#57 Postby fwbbreeze » Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:37 pm

Listen, no one is saying they are not trained or experienced in their profession. I, along with others, just feel they are overcompensated for the service they render. Like Gtalum said you are compensated on what the market dictates, same as in my profession, however the market no longer can bear the extremely high end salaries that pilots became accustomed to making. I still say let them strike if they feel cheated. Then they could compete for a job at another airline against entry level pilots willing to take a significantly lower pay just to obtain a position.

fwbbreeze
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#58 Postby GalvestonDuck » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:31 pm

nystate wrote:Most people could probably follow a step-by-step detailed instruction booklet on how to safely fly an airliner.


Fly? Maybe. Land? Probably not as easy. Acquiring skills to do just about any job, like landing a plane, takes time and practice. Some more than others.

nystate wrote:Just like most people could perform heart surgery if they followed carefully designed steps that told them precisely what to do and when to do it.


Ummm...gotta disagree with you there big time. Ever witness heart surgery? It's not like following a recipe for making cookies -- getting the right measurements for the ingredients and the correct temperature and time for the baking. Furthermore, there's a team of specialists involved, not just a surgeon.

Aren't many planes designed with some of the same general basic elements? Therefore, sure, maybe someone could follow a book and safely fly an airplane, as long as they understood terms like throttle, lift, heading, cruising, altimeter, stall, reverse thrust, and so forth. Those should all mean the same thing for most aircraft, even if there are slight variations in different models of craft, right?

With heart surgery (or any surgery), it's completely different. A patient is an individual, not a machine. There are so many variables (age, blood pressure, weight, electrolyte balance, hematocrit level, amount of vessel blockage, response to anesthesia, response to pain...just to name a few) that can affect a surgical procedure. Each one is treated as a unique case with respect to the patient's needs, care, and state of health.

Comparing a machine to a person? Come on....
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#59 Postby Gtmalacd » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:22 pm

I wish I could agree with you GalvestonDuckie, but western philosphy on medicine considers individuals as machines and money makers. Western philosphy is really bad in treating the individual than the sickness. However, like all heart transplants, airplanes kinda run the same pattern. I have actually been honored enough to assist in heart surgeries, transplants, cosmetic surgeries and the like. The worst case I have ever dealt with was a machete attack. Anyways, airplanes are easy to fly, but landing them is a total different animal. Not anyone can do it..
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#60 Postby GalvestonDuck » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:12 pm

Gtmalacd wrote:I wish I could agree with you GalvestonDuckie, but western philosphy on medicine considers individuals as machines and money makers. Western philosphy is really bad in treating the individual than the sickness. However, like all heart transplants, airplanes kinda run the same pattern. I have actually been honored enough to assist in heart surgeries, transplants, cosmetic surgeries and the like. The worst case I have ever dealt with was a machete attack. Anyways, airplanes are easy to fly, but landing them is a total different animal. Not anyone can do it..


Eh? Western philosophy? Western philosophy does not treat patients...physicians, nurses, and other healthcare workers do.

You assisted in heart surgeries? Doing what, may I ask?

I had a friend who was a surgery resident. One time, she invited me (with the cardiologist's permission) to observe a transplant in the OR. Without a doubt, it was one of the most awesome experiences in my life. Other than that, I guess I've just spent 18 years serving machines (in your opinion) in the ER and other areas of the hospital. I always thought my ER years were the most rewarding. But now that you dwindle it down to mere screws, nuts, and bolts, I guess I was wrong.

:roll:
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