Katrina - Has America Forgotten?

[Audrey2Katrina]

arcticfire..... forgot to tell folks that Alaska has an oil royalty permanent fund.....every year Alaskans recieve money from this fund. They get the money even if there has not been a natural disaster.

Gee... be nice if We'd have that! In fact, had we had it for the past 50 years, we wouldn't be needing a dime of federal money--certainly not for infrastructure--quite possibly the protection might've even been in place to have avoided all this horror.
Yes, I know... hindsight... 20/20.... speculation....

But an interesting speculation nonetheless.

A2K

[brunota2003]

Some things are better not spoken...but left in the mind...I'm out...probably for good...my legal addicition has come to an end...

[Derek Ortt]

surge was not 30 feet in New Orleans... closer to 15-20, which is typical of a cat 3 for the NGOM

The levees did not do their job

[TSmith274]

But what if the reason you flooded was because of faulty government made levees?

But NO didnt flood because of faulty gov't levees...they flooded because Katrina was to much for them...that in no means makes them faulty...They did what they were designed to do, no more, no less.

That is an absolute false statement. The federal government is liable in design, construction, and preliminary soil testing. Do a Google search on the levees.

[TSmith274]

But what if the reason you flooded was because of faulty government made levees?

they are "old" to.....

Another false statement. The walls that broke were built in the early 90's Gees man... where are you getting your info?

[HurryKane]

But NO didnt flood because of faulty gov't levees...they flooded because Katrina was to much for them

They did what they were designed to do, no more, no less.

17th St. Canal levee wasn't overtopped by greater than Cat 3 surge, it BROKE, because it wasn't driven deep enough for the kind of soil it was built on/in. The levees weren't designed to break. That's pretty much the Army Corps of Engineers' mistake.

See: http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/ ... 287360.xml

[arcticfire]

arcticfire..... forgot to tell folks that Alaska has an oil royalty permanent fund.....every year Alaskans recieve money from this fund. They get the money even if there has not been a natural disaster.

Alaska was my home for more than 20 years. I still consider Anchorage my hometown.

After the March 27, 1964 earthquake and resulting tsunamis in south central Alaska.....there was desperation......just like we experienced after Katrina.

Do not be mislead. After the Good Friday temblor we needed help bad. It was the strong military presence from Elmendorf and Ft Rich that came to our aid.

arcticfire....you might change your opinion someday.....especially if mother nature deals you a swift blow and all that remains is the clothing on your back.

Regarding rebuilding in dangerous areas.......have you forgotten what the C street slide zone looked like? And what has been rebuilt there......?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA......your busted.

I don't seem to recall some grand call to the rest of the country to pony up billions to rebuild C street. You have not "busted" anything.

All I keep hearing in this thread is how it's the Gov fault the levee's failed , it's the gov fault NOLA is in such bad shape , it's the rest of us evil americans that have not forked over our entire life savings to rebuild a city that is under water.

It is not alaskas fault or anyone elses that LA gov did not plan for the future and tax the oil companies to make a fund or levee construction fund or whatnot.

What I want to hear is LA folk admit that their own inaction and failure to plan is a large part of why things went so wrong. They had warning , far more then anyone in an earthquake zone will ever get , but after my house falls on me my family will blame the local building codes NOT the gov and the rest of the country.

[arcticfire]

I should stress since I'm expressing both an unpopular and potentially hurtfull viewpoint that I wish the people of NOLA nothing but the best , especially with regards to health and safty. I wish nothing bad on you and hope you can put your lives back together.

Please try and remember I'm not attempting to insult or offend any one of you , and my thoughts and viewpoints are in relation to the overall topic of if america has forgotten Katrina , not directed at you as a person or your personal situation or hardship.

For those my views do offend I apologize if they upset you , however I do not apologize for having them.

[TSmith274]

but after my house falls on me my family will blame the local building codes NOT the gov and the rest of the country.

What does this have to do with anything? You're not understanding the issue. The levees broke. What does this have to do with New Orleanians? What could we have done to plan for this and prevent it? With your analogy about the earthquake destroying your house... think about this... what if a federal agency caused the earthquake? That's what happened here.

And I'd like to add... none of you are offending me, and I apprieciate your concerns. The issue is not with American people. The people of this country have come through BIG TIME for us. and we apprieciate it. But this dilema seems so simple to me that it suprises me that there are people who cannot grasp where the liability is here.

[Audrey2Katrina]

it's the rest of us evil americans that have not forked over our entire life savings to rebuild a city that is under water.

It's hyperbole like this that lends little credibility to your viewpoint.

It is not alaskas fault or anyone elses that LA gov did not plan for the future and tax the oil companies to make a fund or levee construction fund

THIS is exactly the point SOME of us have been trying to make! The simple fact is that it is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT that decides what revenues from their oil the states get; and they've been keeping Louisiana from quite literally BILLIONS of dollars in those revenues every year--this is NOT something the governor has ANY control over.

I don't seem to recall some grand call to the rest of the country to pony up billions to rebuild C street.

The fact remains the government DID. The National Guard was mobilized, and over $300 million in damages was incurred. FEMA wasn't arround; but folks' tax money was certainly in appropriations to assist in recovery--as it should have been. Adjusted for inflation, I would imagine that would be well over a billion in today's dollars.

Finally, instead of all the faulty analogies, let's try a hypothetical that would be more applicable albeit entirely imaginary. Just "suppose" there were a means wherein the government had it within its capacity to have constructed fantastic earthquake buffers (levees?) which they assured you good citizens would protect you from any earthquake up to a 9 Mm and then you got hit by a 8 or lower, and those buffers failed, hence your city all but destroyed. I'm sorry; but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be throngs of indignant people demanding an explanation for why their ALLEGED PROTECTION had failed them.

Yes, I know there's no such thing as an earthquake buffer; it was just a means of attempting to assist you in seeing things from our perspective. Personally I do NOT put ALL the blame on any single entity... this thing was a long time in coming and the factors are vast and multifarious; but taking things out of context and using straw-man tactics make for fine rhetoric--but are as devoid of logic as trying to put the proverbial square peg in a round hole.

A2K

[arcticfire]

THIS is exactly the point SOME of us have been trying to make! The simple fact is that it is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT that decides what revenues from their oil the states get; and they've been keeping Louisiana from quite literally BILLIONS of dollars in those revenues every year--this is NOT something the governor has ANY control over.

If you think it's the Federal Governments fault your local gov is not taxing the businesses operating within it's borders then you have been seriously brainwashed. You want a fund , get your local gov to create it and tax the businesses using your port. I'm getting truly tired of this "it's the Federal Governments fault" as an answer to EVERYTHING that has to do with NOLA.

Finally, instead of all the faulty analogies, let's try a hypothetical that would be more applicable albeit entirely imaginary. Just "suppose" there were a means wherein the government had it within its capacity to have constructed fantastic earthquake buffers (levees?) which they assured you good citizens would protect you from any earthquake up to a 9 Mm and then you got hit by a 8 or lower, and those buffers failed, hence your city all but destroyed. I'm sorry; but I can't imagine that there wouldn't be throngs of indignant people demanding an explanation for why their ALLEGED PROTECTION had failed them.

Yes, I know there's no such thing as an earthquake buffer; it was just a means of attempting to assist you in seeing things from our perspective. Personally I do NOT put ALL the blame on any single entity... this thing was a long time in coming and the factors are vast and multifarious; but taking things out of context and using straw-man tactics make for fine rhetoric--but are as devoid of logic as trying to put the proverbial square peg in a round hole.
A2K

You want the honest answer ? Alaskans would have built it themselves if such a thing was possible. Up here we tend to take the attitude of do for yourself before you beg it of others. Over a million people lived in NOLA from the 2000 census I just looked at. TAX them. $100 from each person gets you $100 million , last I heard that will pile a lot of dirt.

You want to live under water fine ! By god protect yourself then and take personal responibility as a NOLA citized to help the city defend itself from the ocean.

[Dionne]

arcticfire.....your idea about 100 million dollars in dirt shows us just how little you know of this region. This isn't Alaska.......they don't have piles of aggregate and rip-rap just lying around readily available.

Regarding your comment about "beg it of others" is just a feeble insult on your behalf. Louisiana and Mississippi are part of the United States.....we do pay federal taxes.

I'm surprised to hear someone from Alaska show so little empathy. But then again your in "Los Anchorage"........which explains alot. I remember Anchorage as a frontier town back in the sixties......now it's just another city.

[BayouVenteux]

If you think it's the Federal Governments fault your local gov is not taxing the businesses operating within it's borders then you have been seriously brainwashed. You want a fund , get your local gov to create it and tax the businesses using your port. I'm getting truly tired of this "it's the Federal Governments fault" as an answer to EVERYTHING that has to do with NOLA.

You want the honest answer ? Alaskans would have built it themselves if such a thing was possible. Up here we tend to take the attitude of do for yourself before you beg it of others. Over a million people lived in NOLA from the 2000 census I just looked at. TAX them. $100 from each person gets you $100 million , last I heard that will pile a lot of dirt.

A couple more well-placed casts and if we bite, we lose. Mind turning off the trolling motor for a bit?

Having followed this thread for the preceding two days, and after reading the quoted excerpts above, I feel obligated to briefly interject. IMHO, the above statements cannot be properly responded to nor defended without this thread turning blatantly political -- where it's been teetering on the edge of for the last several posts. One could write a twelve inch-deep missive reponding to the inaccuracies, distortions, and ignored facts regarding both comments made on the New Orleans and Louisiana local and state government, as well as holding up a mirror to view the realities of Alaska's economy, revenue stream and the pervasive Alaskan "rugged individual / do it yourself" myth as it pertains to the state's relationship with our federal government. Unfortunately, it would involve mentioning personalities, events, and issues that would, by the rules of this board, likely make the reponse a political one.

Respectfully, this thread should either be transferred to the Aftermath & Recovery forum or locked, as no longer is anyone "Talkin' Tropics".

[Pearl River]

Arctic wrote

Over a million people lived in NOLA from the 2000 census I just looked at.

From the U.S Census Bureau.

2004 2000 1990
Population 462,269 484,674 496,938

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2004 Population Estimates, Census 2000, 1990 Census


Not to be nitpicky, but as you can see you are wrong about the million people

You want to live under water fine ! By god protect yourself then and take personal responibility as a NOLA citized to help the city defend itself from the ocean.

First of all, it is the responsability of the federal gov't., under the Federal Flood Control Act, to make sure the levee's were in shape to protect the city. This goes for any town or city near a federal levee system.

Again hard head, if we had the oil royalties that we deserve, we would not be begging for money as you have put it.

There are no buliding codes for floods. The Governor has no say so over the maintenance and upkeep of the Federal Levee's. Businesses are taxed in this state and the city. What is a NOLA citized ?

[tndefender]

:D

Thanks y'all. I don't mean to come off like a jerk, but sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire. Something apparently lost on many people here because they didn't take Louisiana history as a kid (since they were from other parts of the world), is that we were one of 2 states that was actually growing when I was a kid. The other was the island-state of Hawaii. Louisiana was growing every year due to delta deposits and it was estimated that in the centuries to come, the toe of our boot would have been a fairly large peninsula. And in millenia, the repeated deposit of sediment would actually make that land natural ridges as well. Unfortunately, a lot changed. Giving into the oil companies and giving them everything they wanted so they could rape and pillage our resources and then consolidate to Houston, TX was a mistake in hindsight. But that's the proverbial water under the bridge. We know we'll be back despite what arrogant people or those who only live in the cost-benefit analsys world have to say about it. That goes for SW Alabama, the MGC and inland counties and SE LA. And hopefully if we get spared this year from repeat disaster, whoever does pay the price (whatever that price ends up being) also is allowed to rebuild with new compliance issues to help mitigate the costs and burdeons they're putting on other taxpayers and ratepayers.

Just the same, how much are we charging the esteemed citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq to sew the seeds for their futures? Will they one day be taxed so we can collect what we loaned to them? As it is now, every American is $1,000 into the hole since the overthrow of Saddam (not counting Afghanistan here). And since we don't balance budgets anymore and have a national debt, we'll be paying interest on the current $300BB (and future principal) until Kingdom Come. Interest on American debt, the gift that keeps on giving.



Steve

Not trying to add to the political thread here but I am not in a hole of $1,000 to anyone. Not sure where you got that figure, Steve. Furthermore, implying Texas (Houston) oil companies are the cause of LA's misery is totally off-base. If your going to tell the story tell the whole story.

Not in the hole? Oh yes you are, we all are, especially our children. Apparently you don't realize the level of debt that has been building up over the past 6 years and was great accelerated by the Iraq War. And a good chunk of this debt has been financed by our good friends like China. They hold the notes on out future.

[TSmith274]

arcticfire, until you educate yourself about our situation, stop posting in this thread.

[Camille_2_Katrina]

has anyone on the highly paid LEAVY BOARD tried in anyway
to take responsibility?

[Pearl River]

The LEVY BOARD is too busy padding their pockets. Oh did I say that!!! I mean spending the money on something other than levee's and floodwalls.

[TSmith274]

has anyone on the highly paid LEAVY BOARD tried in anyway
to take responsibility?

Camille, you certainly have a point that the levee board was a board of clowns. But these levees broke not for lack of maintenance, but faulty design and construction. Levee boards are only responsible for maintenance (basically grass cutting) and property management. However, with that said, the levee boards have been disbanded to be replaced by only 2 boards of levee experts, hydrologists and engineers... Certainly, they should have inspected closer perhaps. I'd like to know what the results were after the levee inspections that took place after Georges in 1998, which also filled the 17th St. canal with water. I'm suprised nobody has looked into that. Surely that hurricane stressed the floodwalls as well.

[Audrey2Katrina]

If you think it's the Federal Governments fault your local gov is not taxing the businesses operating within it's borders then you have been seriously brainwashed. You want a fund , get your local gov to create it and tax the businesses using your port. I'm getting truly tired of this "it's the Federal Governments fault" as an answer to EVERYTHING that has to do with NOLA.

You have a real penchant for strawman tactics. FIRST.. I don't THINK it's the fed. govt's. fault my local gov is not taxing anyone for whatever--that was never at issue in my post. That wasn't the point at all; but when talking to an utterly closed mind it is kind of difficlt to penetrate. YOU implied that the governor somehow or ever had the authority to get revenues from our offshore oils, and what I was attempting to clarify--obviously with no success--was that it IS the Federal Government who determines what royalties a state gets from its offshore oil revenues... I stated it pretty much like that:

THIS is exactly the point SOME of us have been trying to make! The simple fact is that it is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT that decides what revenues from their oil the states get; and they've been keeping Louisiana from quite literally BILLIONS of dollars in those revenues every year--this is NOT something the governor has ANY control over.

Capice?

While Alaska and just about every other state was raking in all sorts of monies from their oil revenues... all Louisiana was getting was the shaft, and if you don't realize that those decisions are made in WASHINGTON, then YOU, are the one whose seriously brainwashed. Only now is this getting the attention it's deserved for years. I can't speak for anyone but myself here and I'm not "blaming" anyone for what happened, but answering the incessant railing from people with minds narrower than an optic fiber about how we should "pay our own way." Well give us our oil revenues and we'll be more than capable of doing just that. As far as the responsibility for the levee upkeep, again, that has been under the Army Corps of Engineers (I believe that's a Federal program) for ages--maybe we should look into someone else handling it?

By god protect yourself then and take personal responibility as a NOLA citized to help the city defend itself from the ocean.

There are none more blind than those who simply refuse to see. I don't need YOU or anyone else pontificating to me about personal responsibility. By God, I DO! I'm not asking you or anyone else for a plug nickel! What I've tried repeatedly to say (without ANY of it registering,) is give us the money for OUR OIL REVENUES, for which we are asking only the same share given other states!

If that is asking too much, then it is beyond any hope of reaching you with the point I've been trying to make all along.

BTW, your source on the population of New Orleans is SERIOUSLY in error; but this comes as no surprise having reviewed so many of your other "facts."

Sad indeed when Americans allow their mindset to be framed by misconceptions largely media driven, instead of stepping back long enough to look at the entire picture.

A2K