I get this sinking feeling its going to ramp up...

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Stormcenter
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#61 Postby Stormcenter » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:20 pm

Audrey2Katrina wrote:
Katrina was just a cat 3 at landfall, analysis later revealed


No offense, but I really take umbrage at the use of the term "just"... I don't want to open any more of the wind debates on this but I will say that NOT ALL meteorologists agree on that status at first landfall. Yes, the "official" NHC report places it at "just" high-end 3. For my part, and the part of many others less inclined to say their piece on it.. I respectfully disagree, I can't "prove" this anymore than anyone else can say they've tested all the areas--even the NHC report acknowledges the possibility of Cat 4 "winds" ... please don't reopen the debate about it with comments such as this (and I ask this with all due respect) as it gets nowhere; equally please, and I'm not being sarcastic, but only making a sincere request, ask that you acknowledge that this rating is according to the "official NHC report" as it is not unanimously agreed upon--even by well respected pro mets. I'll let it go there and hope others will do the same. I apologize for bringing this up again, but the term "just a Cat 3" sort of rubbed me the wrong way... not your fault, perhaps I need a "chill pill" :wink:

In concluding "Just" a Cat 3, is really a bit of a trivialization of a truly "major" hurricane. Even assuming they had ALL the data, and it was a cat 3 of any magnitude whatsoever, somehow or other the term "Just" seems out of place. A major Cat 3 can wreak indescribable havoc and tragedy. I think Katrina (whatever she was) has truly proven that point. I know the folks in Buras, Slidell, and along the destroyed areas of the MGC would agree with that. Appreciate the time and hope no offense was taken, as none was intended.

A2K


The "just" a Cat.3 remarks get under my skin sometimes too.
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#62 Postby Frank P » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:36 pm

Katrina had the greatest storm surge ever recorded in the US.... yeah it was a Cat 3 wind wise according to most experts but geesh, it's surge was unprecedented... and it was by far the most costly natural disaster in our country's history.... I can tell you this, from where I was in Biloxi it was blowing as hard as I've ever seen it blow... but the wind event pales in comparison to what the water did... it is going to be many years before the MS Gulf Coast is going to be rebuilt... this is NOT going to be months BUT years... sometimes I think we all get to fixated on wind.... water is what KILLS.. you can build for wind but you can't build for water... at least not on my income.... I guess I'm just to sensitive to this because I drive a portion of Hwy 90 every day from Gulfport to Biloxi... and its still quite hard for me to get used to seeing every thing gone that was on the beach for several blocks inland... I so miss my way of life.... as do plenty others that's living this nightmare daily.... and it'll be a long time before it comes back... opening a couple more casinos along the coast is not making things normal again.... Katrina was a major life altering weather event, as was Camille, but so much worse... I hope to heck they were my last....
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#63 Postby kenl01 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:51 am

Well, actually, Katrina as not a classic Cape Verde storm, and second, nearly all the Pine trees were intact after Katrina in that area, so there wasn't nearly as much wind damage you would typically expect in a cat 5. This thing was not nearly a cat 5 at landfall. It showed later that sustained winds at landfall were 115mph, according to dropsonde data. Hugo was much worse than Katrina. Winds snapped pine trees in half all the way to Mclellanville and even well inland. It remained hurricane force through Charlotte,NC. Katrina was not nearly able to muster that. I'm referring to the sustained winds. As far as I remember, Katrina's sustained winds at landfall were just 78 mph gusts to 94. That's equivalent to a cat 1 !

Where are all the "Camiels" these days ??
:wink:
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#64 Postby kenl01 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:56 am

Audrey2Katrina wrote:
Dude! Where are you getting these nifty time-travelling anemometers? Can you send a few back to the Mouths of the Mississippi last year to find out what Katrina's winds were at landfall?


In all fairness to Ken, here, the anemometers have been around since the 1400's. Certainly many were in place for some of those earlier storms; albeit I concede the accuracy of their readings can justifiably be called into question with improved technology comes greater accuracy and your point is well taken, as a LOT of those "older" storms are being reanalyzed for just this very reason.

A2K


We don't get hurricanes today anymore like in the past. There has certainly been a decline in US landfalls and overall intensity in the last 50 or more years. This has been very well documented by statistics from the TPC. :wink:
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#65 Postby curtadams » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:03 am

kenl01 wrote:We don't get hurricanes today anymore like in the past. There has certainly been a decline in US landfalls and overall intensity in the last 50 or more years. This has been very well documented by statistics from the TPC. :wink:


Really? You just *must* tell the NHC to correct their pressure measurements for Wilma. And no doubt the insurance industry will be greatly relieved to know that the past two years did not have the highest number ever of US-landfalling majors. Which ones were illusory?
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#66 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:56 am

nearly all the Pine trees were intact after Katrina in that area,


pray tell, are you referring to Buras? I mean that's where first landfall occured, and I assure you the wind damage there was much worse than 115, including by official "wind damage" figures provided by government agencies... which showed some areas receiving damage of winds in excess of 150 mph.

according to dropsonde data.


Dropsonde data only gives data for ONE drop... in ONE area.. it can in no way tell you the highest winds measurable in the entire area... even the NHC will admit that.

Hugo was much worse than Katrina.


Not hardly, but I assume you must either be from the Carolina area, or just itching for an argument... not going there--believe what you want.

Katrina's sustained winds at landfall were just 78 mph gusts to 94. That's equivalent to a cat 1 !


Okay, now I KNOW this is a wasted discussion... if you believe that, please stay away from New York City, or you just might come back with a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge. Wnds were recorded well over 100 mph well over 100 miles inland from Katrina... and at least peak gusts were still near 100 near the Tennessee/Mississippi border... you are sadly misinformed.

Where are all the "Camiels" these days ??


Probably somewhere wishing they could have hurricanes named after them like "Camille" did. :wink:

This is pointless.. I had to respond to the absurdities you proferred; but in the future will consider the source and simply ignore.

:wall:


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#67 Postby TSmith274 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:08 am

kenl01 wrote:and second, nearly all the Pine trees were intact after Katrina in that area, so there wasn't nearly as much wind damage you would typically expect in a cat 5. This thing was not nearly a cat 5 at landfall. It showed later that sustained winds at landfall were 115mph, according to dropsonde data. Hugo was much worse than Katrina. Winds snapped pine trees in half all the way to Mclellanville and even well inland. It remained hurricane force through Charlotte,NC. Katrina was not nearly able to muster that. I'm referring to the sustained winds. As far as I remember, Katrina's sustained winds at landfall were just 78 mph gusts to 94. That's equivalent to a cat 1 !

Where are all the "Camiels" these days ??
:wink:


WOOOOAAHHH now.... As A2K mentioned, surely you aren't referring to Buras. First, there are no pine trees in Buras... only large oaks, pecans, willows, etc... almost all destroyed. Entire 150 year old oaks snapped in two. Pecan trees not only broken in half, but uprooted and GONE ALLTOGETHER. Also, it takes a strong wind to blow down a huge steel water tower. Seriously, I'd assume you are referring to Katrina's landfall in Florida perhaps? In any event, this will just be one of those debates that people may never agree on.
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#68 Postby kenl01 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:20 am

TSmith274 wrote:
kenl01 wrote:and second, nearly all the Pine trees were intact after Katrina in that area, so there wasn't nearly as much wind damage you would typically expect in a cat 5. This thing was not nearly a cat 5 at landfall. It showed later that sustained winds at landfall were 115mph, according to dropsonde data. Hugo was much worse than Katrina. Winds snapped pine trees in half all the way to Mclellanville and even well inland. It remained hurricane force through Charlotte,NC. Katrina was not nearly able to muster that. I'm referring to the sustained winds. As far as I remember, Katrina's sustained winds at landfall were just 78 mph gusts to 94. That's equivalent to a cat 1 !

Where are all the "Camiels" these days ??
:wink:


WOOOOAAHHH now.... As A2K mentioned, surely you aren't referring to Buras. First, there are no pine trees in Buras... only large oaks, pecans, willows, etc... almost all destroyed. Entire 150 year old oaks snapped in two. Pecan trees not only broken in half, but uprooted and GONE ALLTOGETHER. Also, it takes a strong wind to blow down a huge steel water tower. Seriously, I'd assume you are referring to Katrina's landfall in Florida perhaps? In any event, this will just be one of those debates that people may never agree on.


Not 100 % sure about Buras, but a videtape after Katrina showed the pine trees in tact in much of these areas. And Katrina wasn't the only one with similar footage. Dennis, Rita, and also Jeanne and Frances had most trees in tact. All of those weakened before landfall, considerably. The last cat 4 we experienced in the US was Charley in Punta Gorda back in 2004. And even that wasn't nearly the size of Hugo either. :wink:
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#69 Postby Stratusxpeye » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:34 am

Charley wasnt all that long ago. But he was a monster with his power. He bombed. He was only a small cat 2 when i lost my electric here and by time i got in the car to move some stuff out of m house to a better location it was a high 4 in a matter of hours. Also learned of the NE Curve whil in the car on the radio. Best news I heard for us but horrible for the people south of us who werent as prepared as we were. Charley I agree was one of the actual powerful hurricanes to come onshore in a long time for strictly wind. Katrina came with a lot of surge of which we haven seen before but wind damge was moderate. I went down to charley couple days after and I have some video of the area. Tall steel light poels were just bent like toothpicks. That takes a lot of wind force to do. Imagine if he had another 2 hours over that water before coming on shore in pinellas. Would have been looking at CAT 5 Around 155 or 160 mph. :eek:
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#70 Postby Stormcenter » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:38 am

kenl01 wrote:Well, actually, Katrina as not a classic Cape Verde storm, and second, nearly all the Pine trees were intact after Katrina in that area, so there wasn't nearly as much wind damage you would typically expect in a cat 5. This thing was not nearly a cat 5 at landfall. It showed later that sustained winds at landfall were 115mph, according to dropsonde data. Hugo was much worse than Katrina. Winds snapped pine trees in half all the way to Mclellanville and even well inland. It remained hurricane force through Charlotte,NC. Katrina was not nearly able to muster that. I'm referring to the sustained winds. As far as I remember, Katrina's sustained winds at landfall were just 78 mph gusts to 94. That's equivalent to a cat 1 !

Where are all the "Camiels" these days ??
:wink:


I visited the Mandeville, LA and Slidell,LA areas and there were a TON of Pine trees down in those areas. Believe me Katrina's winds were higher than 78mph. It amazes me this debate is "still" going on. I just ask you to look at the damage and leave at that. I don't care what caused (surge or winds)it is what it is. If it makes you feel good to think the Hugo was much "worse" than so be it.
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#71 Postby beachbum_al » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:38 am

First of all I don't care how strong Katrina was at landfall. It doesn't matter! What matters is that thousands of people lost their lives, lost their homes, and lost there way of life to due a major hurricane. Katrina had a powerful storm surge which stretched all the way down from LA to even parts of FL.

Here are some interesting links about Katrina's wrath was unbelievable and that this arguing is sensless in my opinion. Katrina came in on August 29, 2005 and those who live to tell the story have remarkable stories of survival.



http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mob/0805Katrina/


And for what it is worth I live on the Alabama Coast and saw what it did here. Of course everyone on this board that knows me knows that. My husband on the other hand has gone from Alabama to Venice, LA and has pictures of the area. It is unbelievable the devastation that occur in those areas. I have been through the MS and LA Coast many times and there were places that I didn't even recognize because landmarks were gone. (from the pics that my husband had taken)

To hear people's stories from these areas are heartbreakening. Even if the winds were a high Cat 3 that is still a major hurricane. The storm surge is a different story. To hear people tell stories of finding things that we take for granted in everyday life being something that they want to hold onto...a picture caked in mud, a piece of wood from their house, etc tells the story of what really happen on that August Day.

And over 100 miles away from where the center of Hurricane Katrina made landfall there were 90 mph gusts reported in Mobile Bay at the USS Alabama. That is CAT 1 winds way over 100 miles from where she made landfall. The first link given if scrolled down to where it gives winds it is on that page.



Hurricane Katrina 2005
Katrina was one of the most devastating hurricanes in the history of the United States. It is the deadliest hurricane to strike the United States since the Palm Beach-Lake Okeechobee hurricane of September 1928. It produced catastrophic damage - estimated at $75 billion in the New Orleans area and along the Mississippi coast - and is the costliest U. S. hurricane on record.

Katrina then strengthened significantly, reaching Category 5 intensity on August 28. Later that day, maximum sustained winds reached 175 mph with an aircraft-measured central pressure of 902 mb while centered about 195 miles southeast of the mouth of the Mississippi River. Katrina turned to the northwest and then north, with the center making landfall near Buras, Louisiana at 1110 UTC August 29 with maximum winds estimated at 125 mph (Category 3). Continuing northward, the hurricane made a second landfall near the Louisiana/Mississippi border at 1445 UTC with maximum winds estimated at 120 mph (Category 3). Weakening occurred as Katrina moved north-northeastward over land, but it was still a hurricane near Laurel, Mississippi. The cyclone weakened to a tropical depression over the Tennessee Valley on 30 August. Katrina became an extratropical low on August 31 and was absorbed by a frontal zone later that day over the eastern Great Lakes.

Katrina brought hurricane conditions to southeastern Louisiana, southern Mississippi, and southwestern Alabama. The Coastal Marine Automated Network (C-MAN) station at Grand Isle, Louisiana reported 10-minute average winds of 87 mph at 0820 UTC August 29 with a gust to 114 mph. Higher winds likely occurred there and elsewhere, as many stations were destroyed, lost power, or lost communications during the storm. Storm surge flooding of 25 to 28 feet above normal tide level occurred along portions of the Mississippi coast, with storm surge flooding of 10 to 20 feet above normal tide levels along the southeastern Louisiana coast. Hurricane conditions also occurred over southern Florida and the Dry Tortugas. The National Hurricane Center reported sustained winds of 69 mph at 0115 UTC August 26 with a gust to 87 mph. Additionally, tropical storm conditions occurred along the northern Gulf coast as far east as the coast of the western Florida Panhandle, as well as in the Florida Keys. Katrina caused 10 to 14 inches of rain over southern Florida, and 8 to 12 inches of rain along its track inland from the northern Gulf coast. Thirty-three tornadoes were reported from the storm.

Katrina is responsible for approximately 1200 reported deaths, including about 1000 in Louisiana and 200 in Mississippi. Seven additional deaths occurred in southern Florida. Katrina caused catastrophic damage in southeastern Louisiana and southern Mississippi. Storm surge along the Mississippi coast caused total destruction of many structures, with the surge damage extending several miles inland. Similar damage occurred in portions of southeastern Louisiana southeast of New Orleans. The surge overtopped and breached levees in the New Orleans metropolitan area, resulting in the inundation of much of the city and its eastern suburbs. Wind damage from Katrina extended well inland into northern Mississippi and Alabama. The hurricane also caused wind and water damage in Miami-Dade and Broward counties.

The National Hurricane Center also maintains the official Tropical Cyclone Report for Hurricane Katrina in PDF and MS-Word.

For an interactive map of Hurricane Katrina visit the NOAA Coastal Services Center.


http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/history.shtml#katrina

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#72 Postby beachbum_al » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:43 am

Not 100 % sure about Buras, but a videtape after Katrina showed the pine trees in tact in much of these areas. And Katrina wasn't the only one with similar footage. Dennis, Rita, and also Jeanne and Frances had most trees in tact. All of those weakened before landfall, considerably. The last cat 4 we experienced in the US was Charley in Punta Gorda back in 2004. And even that wasn't nearly the size of Hugo either. :wink:


I would be interested seeing this video footage if possible. Is it online? Could you provide a link for us? I would greatly appreciate it.
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#73 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:43 pm

Not 100 % sure about Buras, but a videtape after Katrina showed the pine trees in tact in much of these areas. And Katrina wasn't the only one with similar footage. Dennis, Rita, and also Jeanne and Frances had most trees in tact. All of those weakened before landfall, considerably. The last cat 4 we experienced in the US was Charley in Punta Gorda back in 2004. And even that wasn't nearly the size of Hugo either


You can't be 100% sure of Buras (which FOR the record WAS initial landfall) for good reason--NO ONE WAS THERE!!!... For the record, TSmith has PROPERTY THERE..and his quote about the trees was spot on!.. and as for "Pine Trees in "these areas"... I'd like a clarification as to what "These Areas" are......and as for "Size"... while Hugo was a sizeable storm, friend, Katrina was BIGGER than Hugo, in sheer size... deal with it. Hurricane force winds extended MUCH further out than your precious HUGO... It is obvious that since YOU went through Hugo, nothing will ever again amount to a storm like HUGO... too bad you are blinded by your own systemic case of hurricane envy, and it's sad--because Hugo was a monster and national disaster of HUGE proportion; but I consider the source.

There were storms bigger than Katrina, there were storms stronger than Katrina... but hate to break it to ya... Hugo fits NEITHER of these at peak intensity, and at landfall the damage isn't remotely comparable... leave it at that and STOP THE THREADJACKING over this nonsense before a MOD has to come in here and set your silliness where it belongs... relegated to juvenile sophomorism.

A2K
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#74 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:53 pm

Tall steel light poels were just bent like toothpicks.


I have pics of rows and rows of lightpoles completely horizontal on the ground... this debate has never gotten anywhere in the past and will never get anywhere in the future... Charley was indeed horrendous... and VERY powerful... (did MORE damage than Hugo too... :wink: ) but this is getting absurdly off topic!

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#75 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:56 pm

If it makes you feel good to think the Hugo was much "worse" than so be it.


For this particular individual... it does... and well said Stormcenter.

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#76 Postby TSmith274 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:07 pm

kenl01 wrote:Not 100 % sure about Buras, but a videtape after Katrina showed the pine trees in tact in much of these areas.


I would just like to reiterate... Lower Plaquemines does not have pine trees. :wink:
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#77 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:14 pm

I would just like to reiterate... Lower Plaquemines does not have pine trees.


Exactly, it has MANY (or HAD them) MUCH larger and wider OAKS, thrown completely over and uprooted.... :( Been down there many times....I wish those folks well, I really do!

in an ATTEMPT to get back to the actual TOPIC here, I believe we're in one of those not exactly atypical "slow" periods of activity... that will in all due time "ramp" up.... personally I hope it's not for quite a while, and that when it does... it spares those areas most adversely affected in 2005's disastrous season, which has had death and devastation more than the previous TEN seasons combined.


A2K
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#78 Postby beachbum_al » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Some pics of Buras and Plaquemines Parish

http://www.taosblog.com/content/view/39
The pic of the water tower sitting on the ground really shocked me.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2494.htm

http://www.plaqueminesparish.com/EmergencyPreparedness/FromtheOfficeoftheParishPresident.php


Looks like there was a lot of damage there to me!
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#79 Postby floridahurricaneguy » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:34 pm

Katrinas winds were for sure higher then 78 at landfall. I went through the storm in meridian mississippi and it was as scary as hell there. I recorded a gust to 96 miles per hour with my friend, the local chief meteorologist!
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#80 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:47 pm

meridian mississippi


Might want to point out that was also nearly 150 miles INLAND from point of SECOND landfall... Just as an aside!

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