2 U.S kidnnapped soldiers bodies found

[sunny]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Three members of the 101st Airborne Division have been charged with murder in the May shooting deaths of three Iraqi prisoners, the U.S. military announced Monday.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/ ... index.html

There are also consequences when our troops do things that are wrong also.

A very important point. It's hard to stick to one's standards when facing a vile enemy who does the kind of stuff they did to these soldiers. But long term, we win by doing that.

You are right Jan. Our people face more than we can ever comprehend. And the vast majority do in fact stick to their moral standards.

I watch these old war movies about the "gentleman's standards" of war and think wow.....

[Audrey2Katrina]

though I've been around here longer than you have.

Non-sequitur...'nuff said.

So what's your point? That because there are such murderous monsters among our enemies, that therefore there should be no standards for our own behavior?

Straw-man... also Non-Sequitur

That's not accepting or condoning what the enemy does - quite the opposite - it's a rejection of what the enemy stands for.

Completely agree.

In case you failed to notice, they weren't marching through our streets clearing house by house.

Again faulty analogy. But they were doing a good job of butchery in their own POW camps... faulty analogy by both sides. The "marching down Main Street" was primarily to root out terrorists... the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's were very glad and supportive...not anagonistic... to what was being done.

If I were around and they had come marching down Main Street in my town, I'd be pretty vicious to them.

Would you be running around beheading them savagely and then after mutilating their bodies, booby trap them? Especially when the work of these "soldiers" is supported by the majority of your countrymen? Perhaps only rhetorical, but this is another very weak analogy.

Finally, the comparison to our revolution is also a product of convoluted logic, IMO. Records aren't all too reliable back then, so I can't say with any certainty; but I seriously doubt if there are many records of us "beheading" the Hessians who were foreign imported soldiers who fought beside the British, or, on the reverse side, much of any cases of the Tories "beheading and mutilating" the French troops who came here to help us in our cause... the two situations were vastly different, and the levels of barbarism utterly incomparable.

On that note of simple refutation, I respectfully apologize for being diverted; but like Sunny, have both family and friends who are, and have been involved in this, and it becomes a raw nerve sometimes. As requested.. I will only reiterate that I truly sympathize with the families of these two butchered boys, I hope God gives them the strength and courage to deal with what has to be indescribable grief.

A2K

[Rainband]

The reality of War is hell. I am so sorry for the families of these Brave men. I don't like war, I hate it. But it is a reality in these days and times. I think back to 911 and can't help but think how the rules have changed. What these Barbarians did to our servicemen is butchery and they need to pay. The sad thing is some people from our own country..some people that these men fought for and now died for to help keep us free actually condone these acts. I pray for all the those that have payed the ultimate price andI pray for their family. I also pray ,that those comparing these acts of butchery to anything our troops have done out of frustration or fear can start to see the "Difference". We didn't go to the Middle East and fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent people to make a point. But we will go anywhere in the world to defend our freedom and we will do whatever it takes to do so. Maybe it's time to change the rules. Like someone said previously, we don't even bomb their holy sites. I think it's time to start kicking arse and do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. I am sorry but they don't play by any rules...so why should ours be so damn strict.

[x-y-no]

The reality of War is hell. I am so sorry for the families of these Brave men. I don't like war, I hate it. But it is a reality in these days and times.

Indeed, war is hell. That's why it should only be entered into for the strongest of reasons and with the most assiduous thought.

I think back to 911 and can't help but think how the rules have changed.

I'm never clear on what's meant by this. Al Qaeda attacked us on our soil. We responded quite correctly by attacking them ant their supporters the Taliban in response. But then we went astray from that objective and got ourselves mired in Iraq ... so I don't know, was that part of the rules change? If so, changing the rules wasn't such a good idea.

What these Barbarians did to our servicemen is butchery and they need to pay.

Absolutely agree.

The sad thing is some people from our own country..some people that these men fought for and now died for to help keep us free actually condone these acts.

Who are these people? I've never met or spoken with a single one of them. And I talk to a lot of people way, way more anti-war than I could ever imagine myself being.

I pray for all the those that have payed the ultimate price andI pray for their family.

With you 100%.

I also pray ,that those comparing these acts of butchery to anything our troops have done out of frustration or fear can start to see the "Difference".

Maybe this is just a matter of perception. Many (like myself) are keenly aware of how fast civilization can slip away and thus are preemptively concerned with preventing that slide. This isn't a matter of making moral equivalence between the actions of our enemy and anything we have done so far.

We're better than our enemy. I believe that down to my core. But I don't believe that's set in stone. It's only maintained by continued vigilance on our part.

We didn't go to the Middle East and fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent people to make a point.

Neither did the Iraqis, of course. Those were Saudis, part of an organization based in Afghanistan.

But we will go anywhere in the world to defend our freedom and we will do whatever it takes to do so.

With you 100% there again. But it sure would be best if we did this in the most strategically sound manner possible.

Maybe it's time to change the rules. Like someone said previously, we don't even bomb their holy sites. I think it's time to start kicking arse and do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes. I am sorry but they don't play by any rules...so why should ours be so damn strict.

As I said earlier, it's hard to stick to one's standards when facing a vile enemy who does the kind of stuff they did to these soldiers. But long term, we win by doing that.

[artist]

I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are - as tempting as it may be at times. That is what makes us human versus the barbarians in my opinion.

[Stephanie]

My prayers go out to the families of those two soldiers.

[george_r_1961]

I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are - as tempting as it may be at times. That is what makes us human versus the barbarians in my opinion.

I guess you are right. Got into a few animated discussions with my late father, a Vietnam vet, over this after the prison scandal broke over there and some US soldiers were court martialed and sent to prison. His words: "We do not treat prisoners like that"

That said and done, this horrible incident is going to make it even more difficult for our troops to treat prisoners according to the Geneva Convention.

[mf_dolphin]

The truth of the matter is that nearly everyone in Saudi Arabia feels the same way about us as those who actually may be fighting us feel.

I'd ask you to back up that rediculous statement but I know you can't. When you use such absurd generalities you hurt whatever valid arguement you may have. This one is almost as bad as "why are we still allied with the Saudi's?"

[gtalum]

The truth is the truth. Militant Muslims hate the US and the West in general. Saudi Arabia officially practices the most extreme form of Islam that there is. The vast majority of Saudis would as soon kill every one of us as look at us.

[gtalum]

Nothing to back it up but common sense. Remember, 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabians. Osama bin Laden is a member of the ruling family there. This is not a nice country.

[george_r_1961]

Nothing to back it up but common sense. Remember, 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabians. Osama bin Laden is a member of the ruling family there. This is not a nice country.

So does that mean all Italians are Mafia since the Mafia has roots there? Are all Germans Nazi? You are condemming a whole culture for the actions of individuals that happen to be part of that culture. You are smarter than that. Its the bad ppl in a group that seem to get all the attention it seems

[mf_dolphin]

The truth is the truth. Militant Muslims hate the US and the West in general. Saudi Arabia officially practices the most extreme form of Islam that there is. The vast majority of Saudis would as soon kill every one of us as look at us.

Ok so back up your statement that most Saudi's hate the US. The militant Islamic's hate all non-muslims not just the US. However, comon sense says that most Saudi's aren't militant and therefore your statement is pure bluster to suport an arguement that has no support in fact. I suppose that 19 is a majority in Saudi?

[rainstorm]

I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are - as tempting as it may be at times. That is what makes us human versus the barbarians in my opinion.

thats how wars are won. do you realize what happened in ww2, the last war we won?? ww1? civil war? revolutionary war?

the atrocities committed in the revolutionary war on both sides were staggering.

i could site literally thousands of examples, but 1 will suffice here:

"I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are"

the atomic bombs were nothing in japan. we targeted japanese civilians in a brutal firebombing campaign frying japanese babies into the asphalt roads. thats how wars are won

right now the terrorists around the world have no fear of us, and unti they do, we cannot win the war on terror or in iraq

[x-y-no]

I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are - as tempting as it may be at times. That is what makes us human versus the barbarians in my opinion.

thats how wars are won. do you realize what happened in ww2, the last war we won?? ww1? civil war? revolutionary war?

the atrocities committed in the revolutionary war on both sides were staggering.

i could site literally thousands of examples, but 1 will suffice here:

"I would never want our men or women to become the uncivilized monsters the terrorists are"

the atomic bombs were nothing in japan. we targeted japanese civilians in a brutal firebombing campaign frying japanese babies into the asphalt roads. thats how wars are won

right now the terrorists around the world have no fear of us, and unti they do, we cannot win the war on terror or in iraq

No, that is not how wars are won. You are 100% dead wrong on that. Did atrocities happen in those wars? Yes. But it was not the fact of those atrocities which won those wars.

[gtalum]

Good post, rainstorm. These guys fight dirty because they want to win. You can't go into war with tainted notions of honor and fair fights. You go in and you do what you have to do to win and end it as soon as possible. This war has already gone on for longer than our involvement in WW2 with little in the way of results because we're too concerned about fighting fair.

[x-y-no]

Good post, rainstorm. These guys fight dirty because they want to win. You can't go into war with tainted notions of honor and fair fights. You go in and you do what you have to do to win and end it as soon as possible. This war has already gone on for longer than our involvement in WW2 with little in the way of results because we're too concerned about fighting fair.

Nonsense. This war hasn't been extended "because we're too concerned about fighting fair" it's been extended because we've made one strategic blunder after another.

[sunny]

Good post, rainstorm. These guys fight dirty because they want to win. You can't go into war with tainted notions of honor and fair fights. You go in and you do what you have to do to win and end it as soon as possible. This war has already gone on for longer than our involvement in WW2 with little in the way of results because we're too concerned about fighting fair.

This is a bad thing? First you find fault with our interrogation process, now we won't win because we are too concerned about fighting fair? Tell you what, why don't you enlist and go over there and show them how it's done?

[gtalum]

Nonsense. This war hasn't been extended "because we're too concerned about fighting fair" it's been extended because we've made one strategic blunder after another.

Well that too, but I wasn't going to go there.

[gtalum]

This is a bad thing? First you find fault with our interrogation process, now we won't win because we are too concerned about fighting fair? Tell you what, why don't you enlist and go over there and show them how it's done?

First thing first: I don't find fault with our interrogation process.

Second, enlisted men and even officers have little say in how the war is run. That's left to the President and his cabinet and a few top generals.

Third, at best I'm ambivalent about the reasons for thsi war, and I wouldn't go to war voluntarily unless I was 100% for it, and that would only be in the true defense against an invasion of our nation.

None of that detracts from my ability to see where the leadership has gone wrong (or, on the other side of the coin, where they've gone right).

[sunny]

First thing first: I don't find fault with our interrogation process.

You did attempt to compare, or draw contrast to, as you put it "what we've done" vs. what happened to these two boys. Reading those words would lead one to believe you have issues here.

Second, enlisted men and even officers have little say in how the war is run. That's left to the President and his cabinet and a few top generals.

True - but it's the man on the ground that does the fighting - who knows, maybe YOU could make a difference.

Third, at best I'm ambivalent about the reasons for thsi war, and I wouldn't go to war voluntarily unless I was 100% for it, and that would only be in the true defense against an invasion of our nation.

See, the thing is when you are in the military, you don't have the chance to say "you know what, I think I'll sit this one out". What's more, the majority of our people over there do feel very strongly that they are there to fight the war on terrorism, and in the long run that is defending our country. OH - that was one of the 24 medals Brandon came home with - for his HONORARY duty in the fight against terrorism.

None of that detracts from my ability to see where the leadership has gone wrong (or, on the other side of the coin, where they've gone right).

Touche'