Israel vs Hezbollah Thread #3

[stormie_skies]

Sunny, if the IDF warned the UN observers of their intentions and gave them a safe opportunity to evacuate, then I'd have to say it was stupid of the observers not to heed that warning. But as it stands now, it looks like the IDF knew the observers were there, knew that they were putting their lives in danger, had direct contact with them on multiple occasions yet didn't make any efforts to keep them safe. If thats not a war crime, its damn close (not that Israel has any shortage of those, and not that they will ever be prosecuted for them).

And Derek, any targeting of civilians or civilian infrastructure is a war crime - thus nearly everything Hizbollah does qualifies. And I don't think there is anyone, on the Security Council, at least, who would be less than satisfied with trying and convicting the leader of Hizbollah. Personally, I'd love to see him and his ilk locked up.

But that doesn't somehow absolve the IDF of wrongdoing, either....

And I'm guessing Kofi's reaction was as personal as it was political. As a human being, of course he is going to react with more outrage when people in his own organization are killed....

[sunny]

This is interesting as well....

Egypt rules out intervention in Lebanon
Compiled by Daily Star staff
Thursday, July 27, 2006

Egypt rejected calls for tougher action in response to the Israeli offensive in Lebanon amid renewed calls by Syria and Jordan for an immediate cease-fire. Meanwhile, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari told US lawmakers that Iraq will join Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt in condemning Hizbullah, Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada told reporters Wednesday. There was no official confirmation from the Iraqi government.

Speaking to a government newspaper, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ruled out Egypt's military involvement in the ongoing Israel-Hizbullah fighting in Lebanon.

"Those who urge Egypt to go to war to defend Lebanon or Hizbullah are not aware that the time of exterior adventures is over," Mubarak told Al-Gomhuriyya daily.

See here

[sunny]

Sunny, if the IDF warned the UN observers of their intentions and gave them a safe opportunity to evacuate, then I'd have to say it was stupid of the observers not to heed that warning. But as it stands now, it looks like the IDF knew the observers were there, knew that they were putting their lives in danger, had direct contact with them on multiple occasions yet didn't make any efforts to keep them safe. If thats not a war crime, its damn close (not that Israel has any shortage of those, and not that they will ever be prosecuted for them).

The IDF has been dropping leaflets all over Southern Lebanon warning people to evacuate. They may have done the same here.

[stormie_skies]

Sunny, if the IDF warned the UN observers of their intentions and gave them a safe opportunity to evacuate, then I'd have to say it was stupid of the observers not to heed that warning. But as it stands now, it looks like the IDF knew the observers were there, knew that they were putting their lives in danger, had direct contact with them on multiple occasions yet didn't make any efforts to keep them safe. If thats not a war crime, its damn close (not that Israel has any shortage of those, and not that they will ever be prosecuted for them).

The IDF has been dropping leaflets all over Southern Lebanon warning people to evacuate. They may have done the same here.

First of all, leaflets only work if the people who receive them are given adequate time to evacuate the area safely - the vast, vast majority of people in southern Lebanon were not given that. Their options were to either stay at home and pray they wouldn't be bombed, or to go out and play "dodgebomb" on a network of mostly destroyed roads - so lets not pretend that all these civilians had the option to stroll to safer ground.

But even if leaflets had been dropped, they wouldn't have been considered directed at the UN. As I understand it, the job of those observers was to help watch the border, to report illegal activity and war crimes, and to help direct humanitarian aid. They are as important if not more important during wartime than they are during peacetime. Thats why it is specifically illegal under the Geneva Conventions to assault a UN position.

If the IDF truly felt it had to take out that particular building, and if they already had the UN reps in the building on the phone, I cannot think of one good reason why they didn't warn them specifically. As it sounds now, the IDF pretty much blew them off... and then blew them to bits. Thats a pretty serious thing....

[sunny]

If the IDF truly felt it had to take out that particular building, and if they already had the UN reps in the building on the phone, I cannot think of one good reason why they didn't warn them specifically. As it sounds now, the IDF pretty much blew them off... and then blew them to bits. Thats a pretty serious thing....

But again I ask you, given information regarding this event is still coming out, how do we know for sure that the IDF didn't warn them?

Also, from some of the news reports I saw, it did seem to me that there were people who did have enough time to evacuate.

[Janice]

Israeli offensive will "change reality," minister says
Reserves being called up to support Israeli troops
Heavy fighting at three towns near Lebanon border
More than 150 rockets hit Israel in 24 hours
Al Qaeda deputy threatens intervention


http://www.cnn.com/

[Janice]

Iran: Israel Has Hit Self-Destruct Button With Lebanon Invasion

TEHRAN, Iran — Israel has ordained its own destruction by invading Lebanon, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday, according to the state news agency.

Addressing the clerical staff of the Friday prayer sermons in Tehran, Ahmadinejad said Israel and its supporters "should know that they cannot end the business that they have begun."

"The occupying regime of Palestine has actually pushed the button of its own destruction by launching a new round of invasion and barbaric onslaught on Lebanon," the official Islamic Republic News Agency quoted the president as saying.

A top Iranian negotiator reportedly visited Damascus on Thursday for talks on the Lebanese crisis with the Syrian and Hezbollah leaders, starkly outlining the shape of the triparty alliance arrayed against Israel.

The reported meetings also supported the Israeli and U.S. insistence that Syria and Iran have a powerful influence with the Shiite Hezbollah organization and its guerrilla fighters.

In Washington White House spokesman Tony Snow said Syria and Iran "are playing leading roles" in the conflict in Lebanon "and need to step up" to the task of finding a solution.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205883,00.html

[Janice]

(CNN) -- With a poster of the burning World Trade Center behind him, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant appeared on tape Thursday calling on Muslims to join the fight against Israel and "rise up seeking martyrdom and attack the crusaders and Zionists."

The video of Ayman al-Zawahiri aired on Al-Jazeera.

He likened the battles in Lebanon and Gaza to al Qaeda's battle against the West and called on Muslims to wage "jihad in the name of God." He did not specifically mention Hezbollah, which is battling Israel in southern Lebanon, or Hamas, which is embroiled in fighting in Gaza.

"The al Qaeda organization will not stay silent regarding what the Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon are facing," al-Zawahiri said.

Hezbollah and al Qaeda have long been wary of one another. But on the tape al-Zawahiri tells the Muslims in Lebanon and Palestinian territories, "Stand with us and we will stand with you."

Nowhere is safe from al Qaeda attacks, he warned, saying that "the whole world is an open field for us."

"As they attack us everywhere, we will attack them everywhere. They gang up to wage war on us; our (Islamic) nation will fight them and wage war on them," al-Zawahiri said.

He said that the Israeli rockets that "are tearing up Muslims' bodies in Gaza and Lebanon" are paid for by the "crusader's alliance," referring to U.S. support for Israel.

He added, "Everyone who participated in this crime must pay the price, and we will not stand by watching these explosives pouring down on our brothers in Gaza and Lebanon while we stand in silence and do nothing."

Hamas and Hezbollah became targets of Israel after the groups' guerillas captured Israeli soldiers in separate cross-border raids. Israeli airstrikes and artillery have been hammering Gaza and Lebanon in what Israel says is an attempt to retrieve its soldiers and neutralize both group's militants.

In Thursday's tape, Al-Zawahiri questioned whether the punishment fit the crime.

"The dangerous events going on in Gaza and Lebanon are proof to any sane person that the crusader-Zionist war is targeting us. No one budged for 10,000 prisoners in Israeli jails. However, the whole world went up in arms for three Israeli prisoners," he said.

Al-Zawahiri further called for "jihad to liberate Palestine, all of Palestine, and liberate all the lands that used to be Muslim from Spain to Iraq."

Alongside the World Trade Center poster were three other images: one of Mohammed Atef, also known as Abu Hafs al-Masri, who was killed in 2001 during a U.S. missile strike in Afghanistan; one of 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta wearing beard; and one that couldn't be fully seen because al-Zawahiri was standing in front of it.

The new videotape is a rallying cry designed to lure recruits and generate controversy, according to U.S. intelligence officials, one of whom said al-Zawahiri was seizing a "target of opportunity" by lambasting the conflicts in the Middle East at a time when many in the region question U.S. support for Israel.

Al-Zawahiri's also released a video last month after the death of al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/ ... index.html

[Audrey2Katrina]

hmmmm, good point. But as facts regarding this still seem to be coming out, how do we know that the IDF didn't warn the UN observers?

One thing we do know: They were in an area where Israel had been warning all civilians to evacuate from for the past several days. This is a case of collateral damage in a war zone, that had been known as a war zone well before this incident. It is unfortunate; but Anan's outburst was uncalled for; albeit not surprising IMO.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

And Derek, any targeting of civilians or civilian infrastructure is a war crime -

You mean like we did time and time again during WWII? I'm not trying to be sarcastic; I would honestly like to know if you would call those war crimes? Because quite honestly, without them, I doubt seriously that Europe would've ever been liberated from the Third Reich, and God only knows what would have happened with the situation in Asia and the Pacific.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many civilians were killed in our own case of bombing Serbia? I've seen estimates that the NATO bombings (some 38,000 sorties) of cities like Belgrade, over a period lasting months, and which included bombing targets like refineries, chemical factories, TV stations, and bridges, exacted an enormous civilian toll ranging (depending on your source) from between 2 and 6 thousand civilians. Now I'm not going to say the US or NATO is guilty of any "war crimes" at all; (although some might), the bottom line is that a crisis was going on in Kosovo, and action had to be taken. The Albanians needed, and in my opinion deserved the help required to prevent the butchery that had been going on. But there are parallels that can be drawn between the two. The UN didn't sanction NATO's actions, in fact a major criticism was that it involved NATO bombing another country, over an issue that posed no threat whatsoever to any NATO nation.

This is only mentioned to point out that things are never as nicely "cut and dry" as some people prefer to present them. I even seem to recall an entire Chinese embassy being taken out. While I do recall some sort of outcry for the bombing of the Chinese embassy; I don't recall all the howls about it being a war crime, nor do I recall the universal condemnation for all the civilian deaths that were consequent to that action. In fact, there are some sources who are convinced that this embassy was absolutely targetted because there was "erroneous" intelligence this was where Milosivec was hiding, and hence an attempt at "decapitation".

Regardless, the action was seen as necessary to prevent genocidal activities against a nation of peoples; and while any civilian deaths are to be deeply regretted, one cannot allow the possibility of such incidents to prevent them from taking the necessary measures to protect their very existence as a race. Israel is no more guilty of war crimes than was the United States fighting in WWII... and while one can take off on another tangent arguing that it was--in this particular case, the ends justified the means, and real EVIL was defeated. And it must be defeated in the Middle East as well, or most assuredly, it won't be long before we find it knocking on our door. ..MHO.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

But even if leaflets had been dropped

There's really no "if" about it. They have shown newsmen and women picking them up on the roads inside of Lebanon.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

Al-Zawahiri further called for "jihad to liberate Palestine, all of Palestine, and liberate all the lands that used to be Muslim from Spain to Iraq."

I just heard this read verbatim on the radio; there can be little doubt but that an expansion of these hostilities is their objective. It depends on whether or not cooler heads prevail--but it is a worrisome statement--which is exactly what they meant it to be.

A2K

[Janice]

'Victory for Hezbollah Is a Victory for World Terror'

Israeli defense minister says any group attacking Israel will meet Hezbollah's fate

30,000 reserve troops called up

http://www.foxnews.com/index.html

[Audrey2Katrina]

This is a direct quote from the Al-Zawahiri message found in the Guardian:

Zawahiri, wearing a grey robe and white turban, and speaking in front of a picture of the World Trade Centre on fire, said al-Qaida now saw "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us".

He said: "The war with Israel does not depend on ceasefires ... . It is a jihad for God's sake and will last until [our] religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq ... We will attack everywhere."

Seems pretty clear what their objectives are from that quote. For the entire article, see link below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,,1831648,00.html?gusrc=rss

A2K

[Derek Ortt]

Good point about the Kosovo War... and we kind of were targeting civilians to bring about a quick win near the end (or not caring if we hit them while carrying out our objective)

One incident in particular, which really damaged the Serbian morale was when a satellite GPS cluster bomb hit a crowded market at the busiest time of day. Likely not a mistake since it was a GPS satellite bomb. The tactics brought Serbia to surrender very quickly and resulted in us and Britain not having to invade on the ground

[stormtruth]

Israel bomb causes Ecological catastrophe:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27727475.htm

Along Lebanon's sandy beaches and rocky headlands runs a belt of black sludge, 10,000 to 30,000 tonnes of oil that spilled into the Mediterranean Sea after Israel bombed a power plant.

Lebanon's Environment Ministry says the oil flooded into the sea when Israeli jets hit storage tanks at the Jiyyeh plant south of Beirut on July 13 and 15, creating an ecological crisis that Lebanon's government has neither the money nor the expertise to deal with.

"We have never seen a spill like this in the history of Lebanon. It is a major catastrophe," Environment Minister Yacoub al-Sarraf told Reuters.

"The equipment we have is for minor spills. We use it once in a blue moon to clean a small spill of 50 tonnes or so. To clean this whole thing up we would need an armada ... The cost of a full clean-up could run as high as $40-50 million."

The spill is especially threatening since fish spawn and sea turtles nest on Lebanon's coast, including the green turtle which is endangered in the Mediterranean, local ecologists say.

Israel's bombs have had some really lousy accuracy so far. Way to go Israel you just wiped out the innocent green turtle. Hit terrorists not turtles, civilians and the UN

[Stratosphere747]

Those Katyusha rockets are amazingly accurate too...

[Janice]

Israel concentrates attacks on three towns
Reinforcements readied to go to Lebanese border
Haifa now like ghost town after Hezbollah attacks
Tony Blair seeks U.S. support for U.N. resolution
Death tolls nears 450 in Lebanon and Israel

http://www.cnn.com/

[feederband]

Israel bomb causes Ecological catastrophe:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27727475.htm

Along Lebanon's sandy beaches and rocky headlands runs a belt of black sludge, 10,000 to 30,000 tonnes of oil that spilled into the Mediterranean Sea after Israel bombed a power plant.

Lebanon's Environment Ministry says the oil flooded into the sea when Israeli jets hit storage tanks at the Jiyyeh plant south of Beirut on July 13 and 15, creating an ecological crisis that Lebanon's government has neither the money nor the expertise to deal with.

"We have never seen a spill like this in the history of Lebanon. It is a major catastrophe," Environment Minister Yacoub al-Sarraf told Reuters.

"The equipment we have is for minor spills. We use it once in a blue moon to clean a small spill of 50 tonnes or so. To clean this whole thing up we would need an armada ... The cost of a full clean-up could run as high as $40-50 million."

The spill is especially threatening since fish spawn and sea turtles nest on Lebanon's coast, including the green turtle which is endangered in the Mediterranean, local ecologists say.

Israel's bombs have had some really lousy accuracy so far. Way to go Israel you just wiped out the innocent green turtle. Hit terrorists not turtles, civilians and the UN

Lousy accuracy? It sounds like the bombs were aimed at a power plant...It appears they hit it pretty good? Also alot of the civilians that are dieing are Hezbollah...Hezbollah don't were military uniforms most where civilian cloths...And as far as the UN they need to get out of there the Hezbollah are using them as shields...And as far as the turtle

[Cookiely]

War is messy. Innocents die. Always has been and always will be. How do we know the electric plant wasn't a Hezbollah munitions storage area. We don't know everything. As for the UN observers, there is more to that story than we will ever know. I have a question about UN peacekeepers. I just saw on FOX that its too DANGEROUS for peacekeepers! Aren't peacekeepers soldiers who are there to keep the peace? Aren't they armed? Also, Iran denies Hezbollah involvement. Do they take us for fools!!