Israel vs Hezbollah Thread #3

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Stratosphere747
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#221 Postby Stratosphere747 » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:07 pm

stormtruth wrote:
Audrey2Katrina wrote:
israel fought a half war. this is a big victory for iran, syria, and hezbollah


It ain't over till it's over, in the words of the immortal Yogi.

And I don't see no fat lady approaching the podium either.

A2K


Let's hope not because we need to fight as many enemies as possible all at once so that we stretch ourselves out really thin and lose everywhere. We want to make sure that we don't get one single country under control before start a conflict somewhere else :roll:


This is Israel vs. Hezbollah....

Has nothing to do with Iraq!
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#222 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:08 pm

Let's hope not because we need to fight as many enemies as possible all at once so that we stretch ourselves out really thin and lose everywhere. We want to make sure that we don't get one single country under control before start a conflict somewhere else


Nice use of sarcasm which adds absolutely nothing to your argument... if that's what you want to call it; but why are you insisting on this "we" argument? It seems you're just hell-bent and determined to drag into this discussion the United States, as if this were OUR war--it's not!

Sometimes it's so difficult for people to shed their political views long enough to hold an intellectual debate without getting sidetracked by their pet issues. :roll:

A2K
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#223 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:09 pm

This is Israel vs. Hezbollah....

Has nothing to do with Iraq!


Thank You !

A2K
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#224 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:14 pm

Interesting program on FOX right now...interviews with MANY people who had been kidnapped by these sweet folks over in Lebanon... you know, the Hezbollah?

FOX News has it on War Stories for anyone interested.

A2K
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#225 Postby stormtruth » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:16 pm

The only way you would say the Israel-Lebanon War has nothing to with the US is if you are not concerned about the impact this will have on our soldiers on Iraq. They will suffer more attacks and a growing insurgency because there are many Shias in Southern Iraq who side with Hezbollah. Even the Iraqi PM has sided with Hezbollah. It is obvious to everyone including Iraqis who the U.S. is siding with on this war.

This has everything to do with Iraq and the broad Middle East policy. Simply saying this is not about Iraq does not make it true. If we were not in Iraq it wouldn't matter so much but our soldiers our there and they are in a country where the shias in the South were opressed until recently. Now they are free to attack our troops. How in the world could you possibly argue that this has nothing to do with Iraq?

And what does it have to with politics? It is simple logic.

1) Israel and Hezbolla fight.
2) Shias side with Hezbolla who are Shias.
3) Iraqi shias see the U.S. strongly supports Israel.
4) Iraqi shias blame the U.S. and join the insurgency
5) Things get even worse for our troops and more of them die.

An obvious unpolitical connection.
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#226 Postby stormtruth » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:21 pm

There are no obvious solutions but I think Israel is going have knock Hez back as best they can and then they are going have to let the U.S. look like the peace makers in a week or two because of the Iraq connection I made above.
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#227 Postby Stratosphere747 » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:22 pm

The US has always strongly supported Israel. This is nothing new, and the Shias have been aware of this before the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah.

In fact, it almost looks as if we have become just a tad bit less supportive of Israel, in how we have handled things over the last few weeks...But of course that is highly political.
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#228 Postby Janice » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:32 am

Israel halts airstrikes for 48 hours

Rice 'convinced' cease-fire, settlement can be reached this week

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- With Israel declaring a 48-hour suspension of airstrikes while it investigates a raid that killed more than 60 Lebanese civilians, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday she believes a resolution to the crisis can be reached this week.

Rice, in a statement read to reporters before departing Jerusalem to return to the United States, said she has "an emerging consensus of what is necessary for both a cease-fire and a lasting settlement."

"I am convinced we can achieve both this week," Rice said.

Israel agreed Sunday to halt airstrikes on southern Lebanon for 48 hours to investigate a raid that killed more than 60 civilians in Qana, Lebanon, an Israeli official said.

The airstrike on Qana threatened to derail work toward a resolution in the 20-day conflict between Israel and Lebanon-based Hezbollah guerrillas.

Israeli officials called the attack a tragic mistake, but Lebanon deemed it a war crime and canceled talks with Rice.

Israel reserved the right to take action against targets preparing attacks against it during the 48-hour period, the official said.

Israel said Monday that its aircraft fired missiles at targets along a road in eastern Lebanon, with the strike coming just before the start of Israel's 48-hour suspension of aerial bombardments.

A Lebanese army official said the airstrike hit Beirut-Damascus road about 200 yards from the Lebanese-Syrian border crossing.

The official said there were no immediate reports of casualties but that the road was heavily damaged.

Safe passage for 24 hours
Israel will also arrange with U.N. officials to allow safe passage for 24 hours so residents of southern Lebanon can flee the region, the Israeli official said.

The official confirmed an earlier announcement by U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, who said the bombing halt should "significantly speed and improve the flow of humanitarian aid."

The move comes amid increasing calls for a cease-fire in the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, which began July 12, when Hezbollah killed three Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two others.

In Israel, police officials said 134 Hezbollah rockets slammed into the Jewish state on Sunday. Officials reported 48 injuries, one of them serious.

The attack on Qana demolished a four-story residential building used as a shelter by Lebanese refugees. The dead included 37 children, according to Lebanese internal security officials. (Watch why Qana residents said they couldn't get out of harm's way [viewer discretion advised] -- 1:52)

At the United Nations, Secretary-General Kofi Annan again called for an "immediate cessation of hostilities" -- a call that has been resisted by the United States. (Full story)

The Security Council stopped short of that, calling for an end to the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah and warning that continued fighting could have "grave consequences for the humanitarian situation."

A Security Council statement expressed the world body's "extreme shock and distress" at the Qana bombing and offered its condolences for the deaths.

In Beirut, outrage about the attack sparked violent protests at the U.N. compound. (Watch angry protesters use rocks, boards and poles to break into U.N. compound -- 2:30)

And in Gaza City, Palestinian security forces on Sunday ejected about 2,000 demonstrators who had stormed the U.N. compound protesting the Qana attack.

'We can't do anything for them'
The Israel Defense Forces said that residents of Qana had been warned to leave by radio announcements and by air-leaflets because it was a combat area.

Israeli officials said the airstrike was an accident and that its forces intended to target a nearby Hezbollah position. Military officials said an investigation was under way.

Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, called it a "horrible, tragic incident." But Gillerman said the dead were "victims of Hezbollah," which he said was using civilian buildings as cover to launch rockets into Israel.

"We are dealing with a ruthless, cynical, cruel enemy, one of the most monstrous terror organizations this world has known," he said. "They have no regard for Israeli life, and they have no regard for Lebanese life." (Watch Israeli video of prior Hezbollah rocket firings in south Lebanon -- 2:38)

"Clearly, we did not know the civilians were in the way," said IDF spokesman Jacob Dalal, who added that Israel was exercising its right to defend itself with its campaign of airstrikes.

Residents dug through the rubble with their hands, searching for survivors as bodies were removed.

A Lebanese emergency official -- speaking live on Al-Arabiya TV -- said rescuers lacked the heavy equipment to remove people trapped under the collapsed building.

"We can't do anything for them under the rubble because we do not have the right equipment," the unidentified official said.

Red Cross worker Sami Yazbak, who was helping to pull bodies from the building, said many of the children who were sleeping inside were handicapped. (Watch grieving Lebanese wail over loss of life -- 2:23)

Video broadcast by Arab TV showed the bloodied bodies of women and children who appeared to be wearing nightclothes. Many of the bodies were under rubble in the basement of the building.

Qana, 10 miles east of the southern Lebanese coastal city of Tyre, was the location of an attack by Israeli forces 10 years ago in which more than 100 Lebanese refugees were killed.

Lebanese PM condemns attack
The attack prompted an impassioned television address by Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.

"We scream out to our fellow Lebanese and to other Arab brothers and to the whole world to stand united in the face of the Israeli war criminals," he said.

Siniora called for an immediate, unconditional cease-fire and an international investigation, and rejected planned talks with Rice. After the announcement, Rice canceled her planned visit to Beirut. (Full story)

President Bush said Sunday the United States "mourns the loss of innocent life" and that all parties with a stake in the Mideast conflict "must work together to achieve a sustainable peace."

The Bush administration has refused to call for an immediate cease-fire, with officials saying they want a "sustainable" end to hostilities -- one that includes efforts to prevent future Hezbollah attacks against Israel.

Senior U.S. State Department officials said Rice will leave Jerusalem for Washington on Monday to negotiate a draft resolution to present to the Security Council this week aimed at bringing a halt to the crisis.

Bush said the United States is resolved to work with members of the Security Council to draw up "a resolution that will enable the region to have a sustainable peace," he said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office told Rice on Sunday that Israel needed 10 to 14 more days to complete its mission against Hezbollah militia.

Western reaction showed a split, with many calling for an immediate cease-fire, but the United States and Britain stopping short of supporting such calls. (Full story)

Rockets hit Israel
Twenty-four rockets landed Sunday in Akko, Nahariya, Kiryat Shimona, Metulla and in the upper part of the Galilee, police said.

Also Sunday, the Israeli military confirmed that its troops had moved into areas of southeast Lebanon -- Kfar Kela and Odayse -- as part of an operation to control the area between the Israeli border town of Metulla, in Israel's northeast, and Tyre.

Also, Israeli Defense Forces said Sunday its ground troops were operating in the border village of Taiyba in southeastern Lebanon, an area Israel said Hezbollah uses to launch rockets.

Troops have killed at least three Hezbollah militants and found stockpiles of rocket-propelled grenades, anti-tank missiles, a cannon with shells and a machine gun, the IDF said.

Four Israeli soldiers were injured on Sunday when an anti-tank rocket hit their tank in southern Lebanon, an Israeli military spokesman said.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/ ... index.html
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#229 Postby Cookiely » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:15 am

Maybe the cease fire will give the people one last chance to get out of the area of conflict. I feel like the people still in the area of conflict may be the families of Hezbollah. Or perhaps they were paid to stay. Hezbollah likes nothing more than to have civilian casualties to put before the media.
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#230 Postby nystate » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:04 am

Audrey2Katrina wrote:Interesting program on FOX right now...interviews with MANY people who had been kidnapped by these sweet folks over in Lebanon... you know, the Hezbollah?

FOX News has it on War Stories for anyone interested.

A2K


Who here is claiming that Hizbalas is "sweet"?

said it before, and NOBODY has offered a respectable answer yet: Given the SAME kind of coverage of the US and Allied bombing over Germany (And Japan) in WWII, would you have been equally outraged, and suggest that the Allies CEASE? Because I can guarantee you, that if that mentality had prevailed during WWII, we'd STILL be dealing with the Third Reich. War is ugly... very ugly, and it's got to be made to appear that way in the hopes that it will so revulse people it will become a rare event. Make it this game of "tag" and it will drag on ad-infinitum and the ultimate toll many times worse.


The difference is, now we have the technology to make bombing like what occured in WWII obsolete. If we resorted to WWII tactics now then we would rightly be charged with war crimes. In WWII we had to level cities because our bombs were inaccurate and the only way that we could be sure to destroy a target was to drop thousands and thousands of bombs in the general area. Now we have precision bombs that are exceedingly accurate, so the need for large-scale bombing runs has almost completely vanished.
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#231 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:40 am

Not necessarily

One of the main objectives of the WW2 bombing raids was to terrorise the civilian population by killing as many as possible. Those raids, such as Dresden, were designed to kill tens of thousands of people.

If we were in a fight for our survival, rest assured that we wont play video game war, the gloves would be off
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#232 Postby nystate » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:57 am

If we were in a fight for our survival, rest assured that we wont play video game war, the gloves would be off


True, and rightly so. However, Israel has been dealing with Hizballah for years. I don't think that this is exactly a fight for their survival (very few Israeli civilians have actually been killed); rather, it is a fight to eliminate a deadly nuisance (Hizballah). If the UN goes in and disarms Hizballah, Israel wins, and that is good for all of us!
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#233 Postby Janice » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:18 am

Al-Manar television claims Hezbollah guerrillas hit an Israeli warship with missiles, wire services report. An Israeli security source said no Israeli vessel had been hit, Reuters reports

Israel launches airstrikes despite agreement to stop raids for 48 hours
Israeli military expresses regret for strike on Lebanese military vehicle
Israeli forces make new incursion into southern Lebanon, spokesman says
Bush: Iran must end support for "terrorist groups like Hezbollah"

http://www.cnn.com/
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#234 Postby Janice » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:05 pm

'No cease-fire'

'Israel continues to fight'

Israeli PM Ehud Olmert says no ceasefire with Hezbollah in coming days
Israel launches airstrikes despite agreement to stop raids for 48 hours
U.N. Security Council postpones meeting to set up new peacekeeping force
Bush: Iran, Syria must end support for terrorists

http://www.cnn.com/
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#235 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:28 pm

Who here is claiming that Hizbalas is "sweet"?


It's called sarcasm. Surely you don't need that explained, do you?

The difference is, now we have the technology to make bombing like what occured in WWII obsolete. If we resorted to WWII tactics now then we would rightly be charged with war crimes. In WWII we had to level cities because our bombs were inaccurate and the only way that we could be sure to destroy a target was to drop thousands and thousands of bombs in the general area. Now we have precision bombs that are exceedingly accurate, so the need for large-scale bombing runs has almost completely vanished.


Nice try, but no cookie. So were we guilty of a war crime in dropping the A-Bomb on Hiroshima? on Nagasaki?
So, let's try another application of your logic. Was NATO (very much US military) guilty of "war crimes" when they killed up to 6,000 civilians in Yugoslavia with the bombing of bridges, TV stations, and other infrastructures of Serbia for some 3 months? Just want to see if you're going to be consistent here. Or perhaps they should have just tried to "smart bomb" Slobodan into submission? Sorry, but there are way too many armchair generals running around today, and the notion that you can win a war against animals/butchers like Hezbollah, who absolutely TRY to up a civilian casualty count, without those casualties... will only result in higher and higher death tolls protracted over a greater length of time. You cannot deal with a mad-dog... you have to put it out of its misery. Hezbollah is a MAD DOG. And if it isn't dealt with, it will exact a terrible toll, and the most ironic thing is that it's the very loudest voices out there bemoaning Israel's "aggressive" behavior, who would be the first on the decapitation list of these barbarians [Hezbollah].

I hope Israel cleans their clocks!

A2K
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#236 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:33 pm

One of the main objectives of the WW2 bombing raids was to terrorise the civilian population by killing as many as possible. Those raids, such as Dresden, were designed to kill tens of thousands of people.


I guess that makes us war criminals???

Okay, that was also--sarcasm. You are precisely correct, they were "intended" to bring down the morale of the enemy. The very notion that they were NOT targeting civilian population areas simply because they didn't have "smart" bombs is absurd. They certainly could have limited their bombing missions to industrial complexes, shipyards, military camps, etc... but the fact is these bombs were absolutely dropped in the HEART of downtown Dresden, downtown Hamburg... there can be NO DOUBT whatsoever that civilian causalties is exactly what was expected. And without the massive bombings... we might never have beaten Germany (and certainly not Japan) into surrender--would never have happened.

Like I said... thank God today's mentality wasn't around back then or we'd still see swastikas waving over an awful lot of acreage.

A2K
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#237 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:36 pm

If the UN goes in and disarms Hizballah, Israel wins, and that is good for all of us!


Given their record on quelling previous hotbeds of violence... that's :uarrow: got about as much chance as a snowball in hell.

A2K
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#238 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:02 pm

and most of hose civilian casualties in Kosovo were deliberate, such as dropping a GPS guided cluster bomb in a crowded market at what just happened to the busiest time of the day.

There were mistakes, but reports are those only accounted for about 500 of the civilian deaths

By us targeting civilians during Kosovo, we brought down the morale of the Serbian people, and it was they who forced Slobo to surrender unconditionally
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#239 Postby stormtruth » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:13 pm

More Iraqi criticism of Israel
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/31/D8J702TO0.html

Iraq's vice president on Monday accused Israel of carrying out "massacres" in Lebanon, the strongest criticism yet of the Jewish state by a top official of the U.S-backed Iraqi government.

Vice President Adel Abdul-Mahdi, a Shiite, singled out Sunday's Israeli airstrike that killed at least 56 Lebanese, mostly women and children, in the village of Qana. The deadliest attack in nearly three weeks of fighting has triggered an international uproar.
****
On Sunday, Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, demanded an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon, warning that "Islamic nations will not forgive the entities that hinder a cease-fire," al- Sistani said, in a clear reference to the United States.

The latest remarks by Abdul-Mahdi and Sistani are likely to heighten Iraqi public anger against the United States and create political problems for the Iraqi government, which depends on the Americans for its security and survival.


Sistani was the one that helped calm things down in southern iraq in the early stages of the War. The fact that he is now basically accusing the U.S. is not good at all. More bad news for our beleaguered troops in Iraq. Seems the Iraqis shias prefer a terrorist group like Hezbollah over the U.S.

Another point, Sistani basically controls what Shias do in southern Iraq. He has that much influence. What he is trying to do is threaten potential chaos in Southern Iraq to get the U.S. to back down on supporting Israel. In other words, our being in Iraq, our occupation, makes it much more difficult for us to support Israel because Sistani has such a big card to play -- Iraq stability. A card that we gave him when we invaded Iraq. We don't call for a cease-fire then Sistani plays his hand and violence against our troop escalates. You also can't kill Sistani because that would also bring chaos in Southern Iraq. Of course, it may all go to hell there anyway.
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#240 Postby Audrey2Katrina » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:20 pm

A card that we gave him when we invaded Iraq. We don't call for a cease-fire then Sistani plays his hand and violence against our troop escalates.


Look... if you are that determined to drag IRAQ into this picture, PLEASE start a thread on the implications of Iraq's role in the current crisis; but likewise I ask you to please stop bringing Iraq into a thread that specifically addresses Israel, and Hezbollah... period. Tangential issues such as this have no place in the discussion unless one is determined to soapbox another issue--and that is decidedly not what this thread is for.

A2K
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