Invest 97L: Comments, Sat Pics, Models Thread #3

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wxman57
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#281 Postby wxman57 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:26 am

AJC3 wrote:
And that's a pretty big if. Conditions won't be very favorable in the eastern Caribbean, and a pretty potent upper low is forecast to form and drop SW into the western Caribbean by 48 hours, before turning westward. 97L needs to slow it's forward speed "if it knows what's good for it" or it'll run right into some serious southerly shear.


The upper low could actuallly aid in its development if it is far enough away. Southwest winds aloft could provide good outlow to the west and southwest.

Or, it could rip it apart.... ;-)
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#282 Postby Wthrman13 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:26 am

skysummit wrote:Is that increasing winds with decreasing altitude? Can't be.


Why not? Happens all the time in tropical cyclones (and in continental low-level jets, among other situations). In fact, if it weren't for friction with the surface, the strongest winds would be at the surface in a TC.
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#283 Postby skysummit » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:26 am

gatorcane wrote:
jschlitz wrote:To be technical, yes it is relative


Looks like the new orleans MET that said there was alot of shear ahead of it and wasn't worried about it could be right folks...

remember all of the arguing about this last night 8-)


Yea...that was Bob Breck who mentioned something like that last night and we thought he was crazy.
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#284 Postby AJC3 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:26 am

Derek Ortt wrote:to say that soemthing moving this quickly cannot develop is a myth

if there were not westerly winds aloft, conditions would be just fine


I hope this wasn't directed at me because I never made that kind of generalization. I said, THIS system is moving too fast to have already developed a closed wind circulation.
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#285 Postby gatorcane » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:27 am

skysummit wrote:
gatorcane wrote:
jschlitz wrote:To be technical, yes it is relative


Looks like the new orleans MET that said there was alot of shear ahead of it and wasn't worried about it could be right folks...

remember all of the arguing about this last night 8-)


Yea...that was Bob Breck who mentioned something like that last night and we thought he was crazy.


He obviously saw something 99% of us including the NHC didn't see.
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#286 Postby SCMedic » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:30 am

http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/ ... amp=200608

Maybe you should all read what the Jeff Masters has to say...Pretty solid synopsis.
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#287 Postby AJC3 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:30 am

wxman57 wrote:
AJC3 wrote:
And that's a pretty big if. Conditions won't be very favorable in the eastern Caribbean, and a pretty potent upper low is forecast to form and drop SW into the western Caribbean by 48 hours, before turning westward. 97L needs to slow it's forward speed "if it knows what's good for it" or it'll run right into some serious southerly shear.


The upper low could actuallly aid in its development if it is far enough away. Southwest winds aloft could provide good outlow to the west and southwest.

Or, it could rip it apart.... ;-)


True. If the 12Z GFS is to be believed (yet another big "if"), then there should be enough separation between 97 and the ULL to where divergence on the east side will create a favorable ascent pattern which enhances outflow.

Will be interesting to follow.
Last edited by AJC3 on Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#288 Postby Frank P » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 am

gatorcane wrote:
skysummit wrote:
gatorcane wrote:
jschlitz wrote:To be technical, yes it is relative


Looks like the new orleans MET that said there was alot of shear ahead of it and wasn't worried about it could be right folks...

remember all of the arguing about this last night 8-)


Yea...that was Bob Breck who mentioned something like that last night and we thought he was crazy.


He obviously saw something 99% of us including the NHC didn't see.


Yeah and Breck said last year that Katrina would NOT get into the GOM, for us not to worry about it and would be an east coast problem.... I'll never forget that.... he wasn't seeing all that well last year, perhaps he has had some lasak surgery since Katrina... :D
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#289 Postby jasons2k » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 am

AJC3 wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:to say that soemthing moving this quickly cannot develop is a myth

if there were not westerly winds aloft, conditions would be just fine


I hope this wasn't directed at me because I never made that kind of generalization. I said, THIS system is moving too fast to have already developed a closed wind circulation.


I *think* it was directed at me, but I wasn't generalizing. I was making the point that IF that swirl we see on the visibles is in fact the LLC (if there even is one - just to clarify that too), it is outrunning the convection and doesn't bode well for development.
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#290 Postby Agua » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:31 am

gatorcane wrote:
skysummit wrote:
gatorcane wrote:
jschlitz wrote:To be technical, yes it is relative


Looks like the new orleans MET that said there was alot of shear ahead of it and wasn't worried about it could be right folks...

remember all of the arguing about this last night 8-)


Yea...that was Bob Breck who mentioned something like that last night and we thought he was crazy.


He obviously saw something 99% of us including the NHC didn't see.


Broken clock, etc.
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#291 Postby AJC3 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:32 am

jschlitz wrote:
AJC3 wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:to say that soemthing moving this quickly cannot develop is a myth

if there were not westerly winds aloft, conditions would be just fine


I hope this wasn't directed at me because I never made that kind of generalization. I said, THIS system is moving too fast to have already developed a closed wind circulation.


I *think* it was directed at me, but I wasn't generalizing. I was making the point that IF that swirl we see on the visibles is in fact the LLC (if there even is one - just to clarify that too), it is outrunning the convection and doesn't bode well for development.



Gotcha. Missed your post in the thread.
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#292 Postby Johnny » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:32 am

I really don't think this system was meant to be. All mets were bullish with this becoming something in the near term and unexpectedly...shear has gotten ahold of it this morning. Now we have a ULL that could come into the picture in the western Caribbean in a couple of days. It went from very favorable conditions to alot of ifs, ands or buts. This system is gonna have to put on some body armor while making the journey through the Caribbean to reflect the shear....or just staying a hair out of harms way.
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#293 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:34 am

The only thing keeping me from going nuts is the Eastern Pacific is doing pretty good....In unbelieveable the central pacific is not doing to bad. I can live with it to a point as long as some where else has something to track. But this may still form....Heck they may even find a tropical depression if they can close of a surface cirulation with that LLC. But intill this slow down to allow the tutt to back it has very little chance.
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#294 Postby brunota2003 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:36 am

SCMedic wrote:http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=477&tstamp=200608

Maybe you should all read what the Jeff Masters has to say...Pretty solid synopsis.

Hmmm...from Dr Masters Blog:
What the new center means for this storm
The separation of its center from the coast removes the primary impediment to intensification for 97L. It looks more likely that this storm will develop into at least a strong tropical storm, and probably a hurricane. The track such a hurricane might take is highly uncertain, but the more northerly center increases the risk for Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, and the U.S. East Coast.
Now with that said...I really dont like a more northern reformation...which is what happend...:eek: DIE!!! it better not be no East Coast storm...it better not be a storm period...
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#295 Postby gatorcane » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:37 am

brunota2003 wrote:
SCMedic wrote:http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=477&tstamp=200608

Maybe you should all read what the Jeff Masters has to say...Pretty solid synopsis.

Hmmm...from Dr Masters Blog:
What the new center means for this storm
The separation of its center from the coast removes the primary impediment to intensification for 97L. It looks more likely that this storm will develop into at least a strong tropical storm, and probably a hurricane. The track such a hurricane might take is highly uncertain, but the more northerly center increases the risk for Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, and the U.S. East Coast.
Now with that said...I really dont like a more northern reformation...which is what happend...:eek: DIE!!! it better not be no East Coast storm...it better not be a storm period...


It's okay the ULLs and TUTT continue to shield everything coming from the East..
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#296 Postby wxmann_91 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:38 am

AJC3 wrote:
jschlitz wrote:
AJC3 wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:to say that soemthing moving this quickly cannot develop is a myth

if there were not westerly winds aloft, conditions would be just fine


I hope this wasn't directed at me because I never made that kind of generalization. I said, THIS system is moving too fast to have already developed a closed wind circulation.


I *think* it was directed at me, but I wasn't generalizing. I was making the point that IF that swirl we see on the visibles is in fact the LLC (if there even is one - just to clarify that too), it is outrunning the convection and doesn't bode well for development.



Gotcha. Missed your post in the thread.


Derek,
Quote tags are your friend. :wink:

The SAL is leaving... expect a slowdown within 24 hours.
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#297 Postby skysummit » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:38 am

SCMedic wrote:http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=477&tstamp=200608

Maybe you should all read what the Jeff Masters has to say...Pretty solid synopsis.


I agree...you all should read this. He's almost on a totally different span than most of the people here.
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#298 Postby WxGuy1 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:40 am

Johnny wrote:I really don't think this system was meant to be. All mets were bullish with this becoming something in the near term and unexpectedly...shear has gotten ahold of it this morning. Now we have a ULL that could come into the picture in the western Caribbean in a couple of days. It went from very favorable conditions to alot of ifs, ands or buts. This system is gonna have to put on some body armor while making the journey through the Caribbean to reflect the shear....or just staying a hair out of harms way.


Really? ALL mets were bullish? I know many that certainly were not. Conditions with this wave haven't been perfect, just "sufficient" by most people's definition (esp relative to what we've seen thus far this year). The wave has hung out a very low latitude, and dry air and strong shear have characterized the area just north of this wave for the past few days IIRC. Current wind shear analysis from UWisc shows that the only area with sufficiently-low shear is right where the wave is now, with >30kt shear to it's west and north.

We just don't know enough about tropical cyclone genesis to accurately forecast it. Period. We see this every year, and people get all up in arms about a potential major hurricane from a tropical wave / a system below TD criteria. I'm NOT saying this won't develop, but as many have said in the past few days -- just take a breath! We don't know if it will or not. It may be a Cat 3 in the Gulf, or it meet the same fate as many other tropical waves have this year. We just don't know in this case. Sometimes we can make educated guesses a little farther out (like if the entire area is forecast to contain very strong shear in 24hrs -- we can safely assume that any tropical cyclone will likely be weak and/or short-lived), but that depends on the synoptic environment and forecast.
Last edited by WxGuy1 on Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#299 Postby Portastorm » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:41 am

skysummit wrote:
SCMedic wrote:http://www.weatherunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=477&tstamp=200608

Maybe you should all read what the Jeff Masters has to say...Pretty solid synopsis.


I agree...you all should read this. He's almost on a totally different span than most of the people here.


Indeed. He appears confident in this late-breaking development and it's something few, if any, of us considered.
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#300 Postby miamicanes177 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:47 am

Ok how does anyone know why Dr. Masters said the center location would increase the risk to the East Coast? I really see this going into the GOM...
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