Chemtrails

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SouthFloridawx
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Chemtrails

#1 Postby SouthFloridawx » Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:30 am

What is your opinions on Chemtrails?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_theory
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#2 Postby gtalum » Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:25 am

Wacko conspiracy theory by people who don't know what they're talking about.
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#3 Postby Yarrah » Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:44 am

Looks like cognitive dissonance to me. It's possible to find some sort of conspiracy theory like this behind almost everything.
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#4 Postby nystate » Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:28 am

Yet another thing to toss into the loony bin along with the idea of Elvis still being alive and the 9/11 conspiracy theories...
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#5 Postby Regit » Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:52 am

Don't believe anything suspicious is going on, but it's still fun to listen to Art Bell and Geroge Noory talk about them.
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#6 Postby SouthFloridawx » Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:54 pm

Ok... I was just wondering what you guys thought about it. I'm not so sure it's fair to call people names because they believe something other than we do though. Wouldn't it be crazy if some "Conspiracy Theories" were actually true?

Either way thanks for your input.
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#7 Postby CajunMama » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:10 pm

I don't see any name calling in any of the posts....now what they thought of the idea? That's their opinion and that's what you asked for.
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#8 Postby SouthFloridawx » Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:24 pm

My apologies... I didn't mean that they were name calling. What I should have clarified and said differently was in response to this kind of a post.

gtalum wrote:Wacko conspiracy theory by people who don't know what they're talking about.


Now I don't know about you but, blanket labeling has become a big problem in the days that we live.

Let me give you an example of a conspiracy theory that was later proved true.

Taken from Wikipedia:

"Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro, as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state-sponsored acts of terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil. The plan was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders, including the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Lyman Louis Lemnitzer."

This "Conspiracy Theory" Was later proved true that Lemnitzer actually did conspire to commit acts of terror against the United States. This never took place and John F. Kennedy removed him from his post, a few months after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
:uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: Wiki' Article

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
:uarrow: :uarrow: Actual Copy of the Northwood Documents

Article Written by ABC News...

U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba
Book: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba
By David Ruppe

N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 - In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

Details of the plans are described in Body of Secrets (Doubleday), a new book by investigative reporter James Bamford about the history of America's largest spy agency, the National Security Agency. However, the plans were not connected to the agency, he notes.

The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years.

"These were Joint Chiefs of Staff documents. The reason these were held secret for so long is the Joint Chiefs never wanted to give these up because they were so embarrassing," Bamford told ABCNEWS.com.

"The whole point of a democracy is to have leaders responding to the public will, and here this is the complete reverse, the military trying to trick the American people into a war that they want but that nobody else wants."

Gunning for War

The documents show "the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government," writes Bamford.

The Joint Chiefs even proposed using the potential death of astronaut John Glenn during the first attempt to put an American into orbit as a false pretext for war with Cuba, the documents show.

Should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, they wrote, "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof … that the fault lies with the Communists et all Cuba [sic]."

The plans were motivated by an intense desire among senior military leaders to depose Castro, who seized power in 1959 to become the first communist leader in the Western Hemisphere — only 90 miles from U.S. shores.

The earlier CIA-backed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba by Cuban exiles had been a disastrous failure, in which the military was not allowed to provide firepower.The military leaders now wanted a shot at it.

"The whole thing was so bizarre," says Bamford, noting public and international support would be needed for an invasion, but apparently neither the American public, nor the Cuban public, wanted to see U.S. troops deployed to drive out Castro.

Reflecting this, the U.S. plan called for establishing prolonged military — not democratic — control over the island nation after the invasion.

"That's what we're supposed to be freeing them from," Bamford says. "The only way we would have succeeded is by doing exactly what the Russians were doing all over the world, by imposing a government by tyranny, basically what we were accusing Castro himself of doing."

'Over the Edge'

The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military.

Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job.

The secret plans came at a time when there was distrust in the military leadership about their civilian leadership, with leaders in the Kennedy administration viewed as too liberal, insufficiently experienced and soft on communism. At the same time, however, there real were concerns in American society about their military overstepping its bounds.

There were reports U.S. military leaders had encouraged their subordinates to vote conservative during the election.

And at least two popular books were published focusing on a right-wing military leadership pushing the limits against government policy of the day.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee published its own report on right-wing extremism in the military, warning a "considerable danger" in the "education and propaganda activities of military personnel" had been uncovered. The committee even called for an examination of any ties between Lemnitzer and right-wing groups. But Congress didn't get wind of Northwoods, says Bamford.

"Although no one in Congress could have known at the time," he writes, "Lemnitzer and the Joint Chiefs had quietly slipped over the edge."

Even after Lemnitzer was gone, he writes, the Joint Chiefs continued to plan "pretext" operations at least through 1963.

One idea was to create a war between Cuba and another Latin American country so that the United States could intervene. Another was to pay someone in the Castro government to attack U.S. forces at the Guantanamo naval base — an act, which Bamford notes, would have amounted to treason. And another was to fly low level U-2 flights over Cuba, with the intention of having one shot down as a pretext for a war.

"There really was a worry at the time about the military going off crazy and they did, but they never succeeded, but it wasn't for lack of trying," he says.

After 40 Years

Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy.

As public interest in the assassination swelled after JFK's release, Congress passed a law designed to increase the public's access to government records related to the assassination.

The author says a friend on the board tipped him off to the documents.

Afraid of a congressional investigation, Lemnitzer had ordered all Joint Chiefs documents related to the Bay of Pigs destroyed, says Bamford. But somehow, these remained.

"The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford.

Copyright © 2006 ABC News Internet Ventures

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=92662




Anyway... before you go off calling "conspiracy theory guys" nut cases and weird. Just remember that people used to think the world was flat and everything revolved around the Earth.
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#9 Postby angelwing » Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:26 pm

I see them all the time and can always tell when they sprayed, my eyes water I get a sore throat and I start sneezing, some days it's really nasty out there, just wish they would stop

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/
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#10 Postby kevin » Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:04 pm

It frightens me how much Carl Sagan was correct when he labeled our world a Demon-Haunted one, and while I have nothing to gain by arguing sensibility, I will do it because there is nothing more important than a world where sound minds prevail and common opinions are not falsehoods.

Chemtrails do not exist. Operation Northwoods was produced during a special time and place and has been misinterpreted as some sort of policy instead of an idea that came up in a brainstorming session. However, even if the United States was willing to undertake a false flag operation (and the United States has, for instance before the Bay of Pigs with US aircraft made to look like Cuban) this does not prove chemtrails. There are thousands of scientists in this world, many of them in the US, who are qualified to interpret the evidence and free to publish all kinds of things. In none of their articles are chemtrails supported by evidence.

Our enemies who have thousands of well qualified scientists do not allege that such actions are conducted upon the American public. Our allies do not assert that things are odd in the US. The ability to travel and publish are not restricted in the US. Freedom exists.

One can assert anything on the internet. Which may be experienced, may be exaggerated, or may be falsely correlated. I have read in my wanderings forums where people believe their minds are controlled by parasitic bugs. They are absolutely convinced. I have personally known a person who went on one of those sites, and is not mentally stable to begin with, and began to believe that these things are true. These things are not true.

They are examples of mass hysteria, of viral thoughts. There are things which make us excited, or fearful, and these things wear upon our reason and make us believe or want to believe many things. For instance, the body can produce symptoms without disease. Everything which your body does can be done by your body, with or without outside activity. People without limbs can feel itches. The brain is absolutely hackable.

If the wrong kind of information enters the brain in a certain way, one can believe all sorts of things. That they have been abducted by aliens, that they have seen a bug crawl out of their ear, that the government is poisoning its citizens through chemtrails, that George W. Bush knocked down the towers in Washington, or that a certain small number of people run the world. At the best of times these things add up to a few misinformed people but at the worst they become mass hysteria.

There was a book called the Protocols of Zion which is a hoax and probably done without serious harm intended, that is my understanding, but it is the center piece of much nazi literature and is still read widely today. There isn't basically a single sentence within in which is true. Thousands believe it, no, probably over a million. It is a great seller in the middle east among Islamists.

If one only takes in information from one source, they become hardened in conviction. I have called many things frauds in this post, which many good people on this board probably believe or know people close to them who believe. All of them have been demonstrated false. The weight of evidence is on the side of skepticism. Yet I am not angry that people don't believe the truth, I am simply worried for their wellbeing. If you are angry at what I have said, if it makes you nervous or if you started scanning in the middle, then you are probably trying to protect your beliefs. There is a difference between beliefs and the truth.

Chemtrails are pseudoscientific nonsense. Do not isolate yourself into a certain area of the internet or a certain perspective on a subject. Which is not to say that all points are equally valid, but it is to say that when curiosity become dogma, discovery and the truth dies as an outcome. Get reading.

This is very important if true. Many people throughout the country and within the military would take up arms to overthrow any government that supported it. Myself included. I post with some regularity, if I disappear then I've been black helicoptered. ;)
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#11 Postby brunota2003 » Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:48 pm

Depends...if you call water vapor a chemical...then yes they exist...if water is not a chemical to you...then no, they dont exist...I personally do not believe that chemtrails exist...this theory ranks up there in terms with the "NWS Radars are used to control hurricanes" theory...(believe it or not...sadly, people actually think that the radar domes are some top secret device that can control the weather...)
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#12 Postby SouthFloridawx » Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:41 pm

Just like most americans only get the news through Fox, CNN, MSNBC or ABC. It amazes me the blind faith people have in this source of mainstream media who doesn't really report ALL the news. Why do we think we can understand something as they do quick headlines, with most of them being under a minute long.

Anyway I'm not saying this to be angry or lash out at anyone but, merely just wonder why it's ok to rely on mainstream media but, when you get something from other sources it's wrong. I don't remember the media being certified "Everything True". They are not even unbiased anymore and people know it. It's pretty obvious which companies is pushing certain things nowadays.
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#13 Postby kevin » Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:37 am

I don't get my information about science from the media, mainstream or otherwise. If I am looking for information about the news I go through the networks and even consider what China and the Arabs have to say, then I read foreign affairs and use my past experience to judge whether the reporting is biased or not.

For science I look into peer reviewed articles, consider what is being talked about at conferences, and keep myself skeptical of big claims. Science works by tearing apart the work of others and proposing better hypotheses in their place, scientists look for unexplained knowledge (gaps) and fill them.

Conspiracy peeps see things they themselves cannot explain, throw in either the paranormal or the implausible, concoct a theory based on perceived motivations and proclaim that they have found the truth. Those who question the underlying assumptions are decried as mainstream-thinkers or pawns of the establishment.

I am neither and am willing to take up the unaccepted if it is in my eyes backed by strong evidence. Chemtrails are not supported by even weak evidence and are therefore bogus. Its an assumption open to new and stronger evidence.
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#14 Postby Regit » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:44 am

I'm with Kevin on this one.

As I said before, I enjoy listening to Art Bell and George Noory on Coast to Coast AM, but I regard the program as entertainment, not information.

There are some things that are truly fascinating. Take Area 51 as an example. But while I acknowledge that Area 51 is one of the strangest and most secretive places on the planet, I don't make the jump to assume that aliens, mind-control machines, and other such things are kept there.

Kevin also used 9/11 as an example. That would take a massive coverup involing thousands of people willing to hurt their country.

There has only been one known incident of a possible true wide-scale violation of power in modern government. In 1974, when President Nixon was considering having troops blockade the White House to prevent the Supreme Court from seizing some tapes of his conversations in the Oval Office. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff immediately began making preparations for a coup. Of course, Nixon never called up troops and the situation went away.

But if a President can't even hold on to a few tapes without a coup, how would one go about attacking a city? Any President who actually attacked a US city would be overthrown and probably executed almost immediately.

The same is true of chemtrails. How do you keep that many people quiet? A conspiracy that requires 3 or 4 people to keep quiet is possible. A conspiracy that requires 3 to 4 THOUSAND people to keep quiet is impossible.
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#15 Postby Aslkahuna » Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:08 am

To determine the validity of Chemtrails, one only needs to look at how much of sieve our Government is when it comes to Information Security-there's no way such an operation can be kept secret. Therefore, in this case it doesn't exist.

Steve
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