U.S. airstrike in Somalia

[conestogo_flood]

It's comparable to blowing up banks with high interest, until you find one that fits your needs. Or atleast it's starting to look that way.

[kevin]

could you explain why in a non-political way, Meso?

Simply put,It's not right to kill ton's of people in the HOPES of catching a bad one in between the good deaths.As aides officials said,the attacks on Somalia hit the wrong people and killed 70 innocent people.But I don't know if the media that side revealed that? But I would rather just leave it here as everything that is behind this 'war on terror' is political.And to get to the roots of my reasons for my statements it would need to be.So just rather leave it at that

Our military sometimes kills more people or people other than intended. The islamists kill their intended, and they are civilians. This war on terrorism is indeed quite political. Fundamentalism is the new ideology of violence. Before we had communism, anarchism, fascism. Now we have jihadists threatening western civilization. It will pass, but in the meantime, for our security, we have to act against militant islam.

Sometimes unsightly things have to be done for the national interest.

[Derek Ortt]

I have said it many times

innocent people die in war

Remember, we lost almost 3,000 innocent people when AGGRESSION was comitted against us

I would be willing to tolerate thousands of innocent civilians dead, as long as we carry out the mission with success. Others may disagree

[Meso]

But are you saying I must be willing to die,for U.S to take out some terrorists,just say 'if' they had to be hiding in my area.Cause as I see it that is sick.I'd rather have communism

I am not willing to die for the 'war on terror',But the thing that bothers me most is that there seems to be no decent strategy.I`m not talking about the middle east here,but more just in general aspects of the 'expanding' the war.I agree anyone that is militant about religion needs to be put in line.But one should exhaust EVERY alternative to get these terrorists WITHOUT killing the innocent people and killing ones own troops.What they need to do is get more intel and really plan things,locate and work out ideas strategically and not on a spray and pray level. Never is 2 innocent lives worth 1 bad persons,especially if it's a guess or just little information saying that this one bad guy is there. 'suspected' this and 'suspected' that really irritate me.Like sending a man to death without a trial. These 'terrorists' are REALLY in the minority of citizens. And if it doesn't stop there will be another world war,and it will be clear and understandable why it will happen. Like I said,I do not want to die for my country,never mind another.I am against the whole patriotic thing,personally.I live for me,no none else.

Not only disagree,but I find your way of thinking disgusting,and will keep my hopes of what will hopefully happen to people with that attitude to myself.It's very nice and easy to sit behind your borders and not care about civilian deaths,if one is to think so greatly about killing civilians they should be made to do it themselves. At least I know a few people in this forum that don't like the way you think.I wouldn't be surprised if you wanted to kill every Middle Eastern person just to make the world 'better'.. wow that would sound an awful lot like Hitler,wouldn't it.

[Aquawind]

Like I said,I do not want to die for my country,never mind another.I am against the whole patriotic thing,personally.I live for me,no none else.

Well that is not the case in America.. We die for the freedom and safety of not only Americans or our neighbors but also people across the world. We care about not only about ourselves but our future generations and our children. Sacrifices have to be made and if it's in your neighborhood and you know somebody is coming it's because you didn't get the job done handling your own issue for your neighbors and children. It's not like were targeting civilians as the terrorists do. We let you know were coming and if it's war you would be advised to move away from the hot spots. If you don't care about your country and neighbors you need your own country.. be a rebel..you will continue to stand alone if you don't care for the people that allow you to take up space in their country and use thier resouces and sacrifice for you to exist. If you don't appreciate what you have stop complaining because clearly your not helping just complaining and not caring about your fellow countrymen..

[shaggy]

But are you saying I must be willing to die,for U.S to take out some terrorists,just say 'if' they had to be hiding in my area.Cause as I see it that is sick.I'd rather have communism

I am not willing to die for the 'war on terror',But the thing that bothers me most is that there seems to be no decent strategy.I`m not talking about the middle east here,but more just in general aspects of the 'expanding' the war.I agree anyone that is militant about religion needs to be put in line.But one should exhaust EVERY alternative to get these terrorists WITHOUT killing the innocent people and killing ones own troops.What they need to do is get more intel and really plan things,locate and work out ideas strategically and not on a spray and pray level. Never is 2 innocent lives worth 1 bad persons,especially if it's a guess or just little information saying that this one bad guy is there. 'suspected' this and 'suspected' that really irritate me.Like sending a man to death without a trial. These 'terrorists' are REALLY in the minority of citizens. And if it doesn't stop there will be another world war,and it will be clear and understandable why it will happen. Like I said,I do not want to die for my country,never mind another.I am against the whole patriotic thing,personally.I live for me,no none else.

Not only disagree,but I find your way of thinking disgusting,and will keep my hopes of what will hopefully happen to people with that attitude to myself.It's very nice and easy to sit behind your borders and not care about civilian deaths,if one is to think so greatly about killing civilians they should be made to do it themselves. At least I know a few people in this forum that don't like the way you think.I wouldn't be surprised if you wanted to kill every Middle Eastern person just to make the world 'better'.. wow that would sound an awful lot like Hitler,wouldn't it.

meso you are correct in the fact that their may be better ways to gather intel and make more precise attacks however...Does one harboring terrorist make them innocent?These terrorist would have no problem beheading you and putting your death on the internet to display their twisted ideology and they wouldnt hesitate or wait to do it.If a family of 40 "innocent" people dont want to get killed then they shouldnt have terrorist over for dinner and its that simple.

[Meso]

Freedom? (can't go into this because of politics) But just be known freedom as they advertise is a lie. Yes,and I`m sure everyone in the world has the money to pack up and leave their house and loves ones and just go where-ever they want with their piles of money. And I'd rather be alone and stand for what is right,than right for something I don't believe in.Yes,and I`m sure you know about the WONDERFUL services our government gives us,the wonderful second highest assault and 2nd highest rape cases in the world,man..just got to love this government.I appreciate what I have,but I don't thank the government for it,I thank myself and my family. Not everything is run by the government.If it were what a horrid world we'd live in.And I am helping,I`m helping myself,not trying to please some 'big man' or trying to live up to some ideal that's expected.If you're not targeting civilians then make sure you don't bomb them by mistake.If terrorist attacks were a common occurance in the U.S I'd understand better.But it's a once in a blue moon thing,compared to innocent people dying every day in this 'war against "terror" ' Sacrifices don't have to be made,they just get chosen to be made. What I find sad is how a man can be drunken useless wife-beating scum,but if he dies for his country he will become a hero.That doesn't make one a man,it makes one a victim.

ps - to previous post : Terrorists don't exactly run around with "I`m a terrorist" shirts on and frollick in the streets with them advertising it.The way it should be done is if the U.S suspects an area of terrorists,they must speak to the countries government and ask them to try resolve the problem themselves and if that fails (which I doubt it will since if there are any terrorists,there will be very few) THEN work out a new strategy.Working the way around killing innocent people.Wasn't the Somali attack after 3 people? there is no need to bomb anyone if there is less than say 100 people they are after,and again 'SUSPECTED terrorists'.No solid information...Don't think a man running the streets shooting people he suspected of stealing his TV would be accepted.

[senorpepr]

If terrorist attacks were a common occurance in the U.S I'd understand better.But it's a once in a blue moon thing,compared to innocent people dying every day in this 'war against "terror" '

You make it sound that American forces are responsible for innocent people dying every day. If that's your claim, it's completely bogus. Innocent causalities due to American servicemembers are much lower that people go around claiming. A significant majority of innocent lives lost are not due to Americans--they are due to quasi-militant extremists.

ps - to previous post : Terrorists don't exactly run around with "I`m a terrorist" shirts on and frollick in the streets with them advertising it.The way it should be done is if the U.S suspects an area of terrorists,they must speak to the countries government and ask them to try resolve the problem themselves and if that fails (which I doubt it will since if there are any terrorists,there will be very few) THEN work out a new strategy.Working the way around killing innocent people.Wasn't the Somali attack after 3 people? there is no need to bomb anyone if there is less than say 100 people they are after,and again 'SUSPECTED terrorists'.No solid information...Don't think a man running the streets shooting people he suspected of stealing his TV would be accepted.

You think the US gov't doesn't talk to these countries' gov'ts? It happens all the time--and the respective country asks US forces to take care of the issue. This Somali thing wasn't something the Americans just decided to do.

[shaggy]

The way it should be done is if the U.S suspects an area of terrorists,they must speak to the countries government and ask them to try resolve the problem themselves and if that fails (which I doubt it will since if there are any terrorists,there will be very few) THEN work out a new strategy

that comment is just not accurate.We could talk to Ahminejiead from Iran and he would not do a thing to help us just the way the Taliban didnt offer help to capture Bin laden instead they harbored him.They will not resolve it themselves because they are secretly supporting it..Which means action must be taken when the chance is there and SADLY that may involve ACCIDENTLY killing civilians.

[kevin]

Look Meso, the world isn't quite that simple.

For the greater good, innocent people die, every single day.
For the greater good, normal civilians who just want to get some college money enlist in the US military and are sent to hold ground they didn't decide to hold and kill people they didn't decide had to be killed.
For the greater good, thousands of people work on making democracy work, making the United States a republic by, for, and of the people.

And if you think our liberty and security should be endangered in this anarchist world that is politics among nations, in the interests of morality, you hold to a 500 year old antiquated idea. Machiavelli in the 1500s was one of the first to openly say that for the good of the whole sometimes the good of a small part must be jeopardized. Very few disagree with him today, because Machiavelli spoke what had been done for thousands of years without a philosophy behind it.

The South African government is deeply flawed. It faces problems from the past and social structure today. There is massive poverty and aids. There is extensive crime. I know about it because I like to be informed about the world. But that doesn't mean you turn your back on your country. You have to either act in the interests of your people, in the frame of your regime or outside of it. Sometimes there is a need for action on the outside, like during Apartheid. Other times in a democratic regime you can advance the welfare and standard of living of your countrymen from the inside.

Patriotism may seem like a foolish thing, but it is not. It binds people together against common enemies. In the United States we have affirmed certain values and liberties. And have been fortunate to endure all of our enemies and develop our society until it was quite a powerful force in the world. This is not because we are special, the wealth our continent possessed, but what we did with it was quite special. Americans could have bickered further over state-federal issues, or become isolated communities, or ethnic tensions could have consumed our society in the 60's, or fascism could have met with communism in the 1930's here and destroyed Western Civilization. There are a lot of things we could have done worse. There are some things we could have done better. But the American people are a unified people, and we stand in common against people who wish to make us back down from the world arena.

We deserve to stand among the communities of nations. We deserve to have the entire world open to us as it is open to other countries. We do not believe that the islamists can carve out a significant chunk of the world for their little Medievalist experiment. We do not believe that the world should be led by them.

And make no mistake, no matter how high the technology and sophistication of a civilization, if it retreats from the world stage, those who act will have the future as their possession.

The American people do not wish the deaths of civilians. In fact, in your continent of Africa there is a government which is going to wipe over one million people off the face of this planet. The Sudanese will with their janajaweed exterminate millions through starvation. And do you know the countries which have called it genocide? There are only two, and they are the United States and the United Kingdom. Declaration of genocide is a declaration of responsibility under International Law. Throughout the history of the UN, no single act was considered genocide while it was occurring.

What has South Africa done for Darfur? When the US and her allies in Europe bombard the Sudanese military, what will she be able to contribute?

You talk in ways that indicate perhaps a disdain for the state. I also find them distasteful at times but they are necessary. As much as I would like to be able to go into Darfur and defend those people, and I have enough money to go there and purchase a rifle and ammunition, I cannot do anything to change the situation. Perhaps if there were several thousand individuals and a corporate sponsor we could allow aid convoys to reach janjaweed camps, but the Sudan would simply bring in the airforce and attack us as non-national combatants operating in Sudanese territory.

For the security and betterment of the world states are necessary.
For the same reason, some people deserve to die.
Unfortunately people sometimes get in the way, either by coincidence or by the depravity of men who hide behind bodies.

[Meso]

Good argument and facts.I'm getting too lazy to keep this going on forever.Just know I don't have anything against America or it's people,but I do not agree with the ways things are done at the moment.And I am not willing to die for another countries freedom,IF I am not doing anything wrong.Nor am I willing to die for my country,just because I don't support it's governmental ideas.

And as for the requesting countries for help with taking out terrorists,I was meaning Africa's side and not the middle east,since I know some of those leaders are rather stubborn. (Religion is a killer in itself)

But I don't think things should be done just cause a government is okay with it,cause if that were the case.I`m sure the Apartheid government would have been pleased to kill every black person when they were in power if the option was offered.Corruption shall plague all.

And there will always be problems,cause of financial and religious differences.It's just the way that those issues need to be resolved.And I personally don't think this added 'war on terror' will do anything more than create a new world war.

[Pburgh]

kevin, if you ever decide to follow a political career, let me know. You're terrific.

Meso, I find that I have become totally intolerant of self centered people who are not willing to fight and die for what they feel is right and good - to fight for others. I've never had to struggle as you have. My family has always been safe and secure - mainly because my father, grandfather and great grandfather fought for my safety in wars here at home and all over the world. I apologize for not understanding your plight - I really do. It must be a very small world for you and your family. I hope that things improve for you.