Arctic Blast for Florida?

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LarryWx
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#41 Postby LarryWx » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:34 am

ronjon wrote:The first shot of cold air for Florida will come Thursday night. Looks like it will be cold but not bitterly so. It also looks to be a fairly brief shot. However, after the weekend, the long range GFS shows another strong front a week later and then a final stronger blast in early February. The last blast shows the -10 deg C line at 850 mb down into the FL panhandle. If this were to pan out, we would be seeing a major freeze in the state.


As long as the pattern isn't too warm, one or more of the GFS runs seemingly shows a major freeze well down into FL about every other day or so in the winter especially out in the 11-15 day range, which obviously almost never verifies since MAJOR freezes occur no more often than a good number of years apart on average. Why does the GFS show these freezes so often? Because of a very strong cold bias, which increases further out in forecast time. The number of false alarms is astoundingly high on this model and has been since 2001, when the model was cooled to reduce the number of false modeled tropical cyclones. My recommendation is to never assume anything extremely cold on these 11-15 day GFS maps will verify accurately since they almost never do. Instead, I would monitor anything real cold that appears as early as, say, ~day 6-7, and starts to appear on virtually all models with similar intensity near day 6-7. Then I'd see if it steadily progresses.

Attached is a chart (see top one, which is for N Hemisphere) which displays model biases over the last 30 days (this chart has shown the GFS to have a strong cold bias every day I've seen it since 2001)(GFS' black line is well below the neutral line):

Image
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#42 Postby TampaFl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:18 pm

LarryWX, What are your thoughts about Florida getting an artic outbreak with a major freeze? There have been rumors that Florida will have a major, possible devestating hard freeze for the citrus areas around the first week of Feb. It is getting awfully late in the season for Florida to be hit with a devestating freeze into the citrus areas. Climo & history has had Florida's coldest temperatures ever recorded in the month of Dec. & Jan. Plus I cannot recall a time when California & Florida citrus were devestated by freezes in the same year. Thoughts and comment greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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#43 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:22 pm

It's very warm today. Near 80 F. A cold snap moves in next weekend...especially this Friday with highs 60-65 and lows 40-45. Perhaps if another front moves in with this air in place next weekend we could get down to 35 F.
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#44 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:24 pm

All in all, this has been a very warm winter, quite possibly the warmest winter ever for Central and South Florida. But I'm loving the paradise weather. I'll take 80 degrees with a tropical breeze over ice and freezing rain any day.
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#45 Postby TampaFl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:34 pm

Tampa Bay Hurricane wrote:All in all, this has been a very warm winter, quite possibly the warmest winter ever for Central and South Florida. But I'm loving the paradise weather. I'll take 80 degrees with a tropical breeze over ice and freezing rain any day.



Ditto Tampa Bay Hurricane. It is currently 79.2 here in Brandon with a nice wind out of the southeast. Have the windows open :D . Does not get much better than this compared to what the rest of the Country is dealing with. 8-)
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#46 Postby richtrav » Sun Jan 21, 2007 12:42 pm

Tampa

In the 1800s some of Florida's alltime worst freezes occurred in February (1835, 1895, 1899), so I wouldn't put out the all-clear signal after January ends. Still, I can't think of any years when the subtropical parts of the western US and eastern US have been hit hard in the same winter. I guess it could be possible, but the odds of a seriously hard freeze penetrating far into the peninsula are already low to begin with
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#47 Postby TampaFl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:17 pm

richtrav wrote:Tampa

In the 1800s some of Florida's alltime worst freezes occurred in February (1835, 1895, 1899), so I wouldn't put out the all-clear signal after January ends. Still, I can't think of any years when the subtropical parts of the western US and eastern US have been hit hard in the same winter. I guess it could be possible, but the odds of a seriously hard freeze penetrating far into the peninsula are already low to begin with


Yes Richtrav I agree anything is possible & untill we get past mid Febuary then I am I am not letting my guard down, but I am not as concerned with a major freeze. We can get some frosty nights though in Febuary. And in Feb 1899 that is when Florida had it's all time record low of -2 @ Tallahassee. See link: Thanks for your comments.http://www.srh.noaa.gov/tlh/climate/janfeb.html
Last edited by TampaFl on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#48 Postby LarryWx » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:23 pm

TampaFl wrote:LarryWX, What are your thoughts about Florida getting an artic outbreak with a major freeze? There have been rumors that Florida will have a major, possible devestating hard freeze for the citrus areas around the first week of Feb. It is getting awfully late in the season for Florida to be hit with a devestating freeze into the citrus areas. Climo & history has had Florida's coldest temperatures ever recorded in the month of Dec. & Jan. Plus I cannot recall a time when California & Florida citrus were devestated by freezes in the same year. Thoughts and comment greatly appreciated. Thanks.


TampaFl,

1) From where are these rumors originating? I hear these rumors practically every winter. Also, certain people, including a few met.'s, seem to love to hype every year. I do think that at least some of these rumors are generated by the cold-biased GFS' numerous false alarms, especially in the week two forecast period. Early Feb. is in the week two forecast period.

2) Sometimes, I'll hear a met. say citrus areas of Florida run the risk of a freeze for the current winter. That's deceiving since some citrus areas get a LIGHT freeze just about every year. Actually, light freezes are more protective than damaging since they tend to induce tree semi-dormancy.

Saying citrus areas of Florida run the risk of a freeze for the current winter is saying next to nothing. The vast majority of "FL citrus freezes" don't cause major damage, if any at all. Saying there is a very good chance of a devastating freeze is saying a lot more. But then again, I'd want to know the basis for that kind of prediction and would certainly consider the source of the prediction. If it is from someone who says it nearly every year, I'd consider it pretty worthless.

3) Although nobody can ever say for sure that there any one winter won't have a MAJOR freeze, climo does say that the chances in any one year are small. The last really major one was 12/1989. Nonweak El Nino climo since the 1800's says the chances of a major citrus freeze are minimal. Out of ~20 nonweak El Nino winters since 1877, only one (5%) has produced a major citrus freeze. I assume this low % is due to the too strong subtropical jet.

4) Although it is getting late thus meaning the chances are consequently falling and despite the low chances during nonweak El Nino winters, Feb. is definitely not too late for a major freeze, especially early, as illustrated by the 1800's.
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#49 Postby TampaFl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:41 pm

Larrywx,Thanks for your insight. Rumors was probally not the correct word to use, I should have said some people are talking about a possible threat to the citrus areas from a major freeze (as that is what it would take to cause problems). Plus after the devestating freezes of the late 70's & 80's most of the citrus belt now lies well south of the I-4 which cuts across Central FL. Thanks again for your help.
Last edited by TampaFl on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#50 Postby jinftl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:43 pm

NWS Miami latest discussion...they still haven't gotten the memo on the impending freeze/arctic outbreak i guess...unless you consider low to mid 70's as an arctic iinvasion....keeping in mind the normal high is 75.

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION...UPDATED
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
1034 AM EST SUN JAN 21 2007

AFTER
THURSDAY AND INTO THE WEEKEND WE CAN EXPECT MUCH COOLER AND DRYER
WEATHER WITH LOWS IN THE LOWER 40S NORTHWEST TO THE 50S SOUTHEAST
METRO AREAS. HIGHS EXPECTED WILL BE ONLY IN THE LOWER TO MID 70S.
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#51 Postby Patrick99 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:52 pm

Hard freeze? I'll eat my hat if we have a hard freeze this winter.

The winter of 1997-98 was quite warm, I remember, but maybe a little cooler than this because it rained more. This January....wow, it feels more like late-April into early MAY than January.

If February and March follow a similar trend, I might be inclined to call this the warmest winter I've ever experienced.

Could the strength and stubborn nature of the semi-permanent high in the tropics have anything to do with the idea that very little heat was evacuated from the deep tropics in the 06 hurricane season? Is there more latent heat in the tropics than usual, and this heat is pumping up the tropical/subtropical highs? Just an idea that seems intuitive to me.
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#52 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:20 pm

Up to 83 Degrees in my front yard...but that reading is probably influenced by all the concrete around the driveway and road....though about 78 right along Tampa Bay Water Immediate Coast
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#53 Postby JonathanBelles » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:30 pm

its 81 here
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#54 Postby jinftl » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:38 pm

If anything latest NWS Miami is backing off expected low temps later this week into weekend....trending not as cold.

In truth, lows in the 40's and 50's will seem downright frigid, but we may need to change the name of this thread to "Cool down for Florida?"


NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
226 PM EST SUN JAN 21 2007

.DISCUSSION...

THE LONG RANGE MODELS ARE CONTINUING TO SHOW THE REALLY COLD AIR
TO MOVE MORE EAST INTO THE MID ATLANTIC STATES THAN DOWN INTO THE
SOUTHEAST UNITED STATES...AS THE STEERING FLOW WILL BE MORE ZONAL
FLOW THEN BLOCKING FLOW. SO HAVE KEPT THE LOWS FOR THURSDAY NIGHT
AND FRIDAY NIGHT AS FORECASTED IN THE NIGHT PACKAGE...BUT MAY NEED
TO RAISE THEM UP SOME IF THE LONG RANGE MODELS CONTINUES THE
TREND.
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#55 Postby ronjon » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:51 pm

Looks like the GFS is backing off now on the high amplitude trough along the eastern half of the country which would bring really frigid air into FL over the next one to two weeks. Instead it looks like a very progressive pattern with the subtropical jet supressed from its deep south position more over the central and northern GOM which, if it verifies, would finally give the FL peninsula the wet El Nino conditions predcited by all long range forecasts since December. I count at least four potentially high QPF events over the peninsula over the next couple of weeks. So, for now, I don't think any frigid air will make it this far south. The long range models do push a very frigid chuck of arctic air into the northern plains in early Feb so even though we're in a weak El Nino pattern, I wouldn't entirely rule out a freeze yet this winter. I'm sure all the "winters dead" forum writers will pounce on that one though. :lol:
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#56 Postby NDG » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:25 pm

The evidence that the GFS has been Cold Bias in its med to long range was posted on the graphics above by Larry. So if you don't see a similar run with a cold outbreak for FL from the Euro or even better yet from the Canadian, lets not get the FL agriculture a heart attack for something that has very little chance of panning out.
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#57 Postby jdray » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:39 pm

Still showing low to mid 30s friday morning from NWS JAX.
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#58 Postby Patrick99 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:21 am

The long-range GFS seems to like to bring freezing temps into S. FL about as much as it likes to bring Cat. 3s into our area. If the thing ever panned out, we'd have been wiped off the map by now!

I think the term "arctic blast" is thrown around too much, in terms of S. FL weather.

A true arctic blast.....isn't that *only* when the polar jet dips into the peninsula? That doesn't happen all that often.
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#59 Postby cpdaman » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:12 pm

looks like temps in BOCA will get down to mid 40's fri morning which is consistent with a COLD front for s. fl not arctic front but cold front

and if boca get to 45 then west palm b will get to 42 and wellington (MY house 12 miles west) will be about 37

and i believe after the warm up late saturday and sunday that late monday another front comes down to say hellow and i am predicting based on the NWS keys forecast calling for a breaking down of the SE ridge that the cool weather will be a little more prolonged and a few degrees cooler i.e 42 in boca 39 wpb 35 wellington because of uncertatinty regarding the strength/ influence of the subtropical jet over that period and the swd progression of the northern jet
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#60 Postby TampaFl » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:59 pm

Cdpaman, where are you getting those 30's & 40's? According to NWS MIA not gonna happen:



000
FXUS62 KMFL 222002
AFDMFL

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
302 PM EST MON JAN 22 2007

.DISCUSSION...A SURFACE RIDGE OF HIGH PRESSURE OVER THE ATLANTIC WATERS WILL
CONTINUE TO MOVE OFF TO THE EAST AS LOW PRESSURE TAKES SHAPE OFF THE
MID ATLANTIC STATES IN FRONT OF AN APPROACHING SHORT WAVE. BEHIND
THE LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM, A COLD FRONT THAT STRETCHES ACROSS THE
NORTHERN PORTIONS OF FLORIDA WILL MOVE SOUTH AND ACROSS OUR AREA
ON TUESDAY. BOTH THE NAM AND GFS ARE IN PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT ON
TIMING OF FRONT ENTERING CWA AND STALLING OVER THE SOUTHERN
PORTIONS OF THE AREA. THE STALLED FRONT IN THE AREA WILL BE ENOUGH
TO KEEP A SLIGHT CHANCE OF A SHOWER IN THE AREA. A SECONDARY PUSH
OF COOLER AIR IS EXPECTED LATE IN THE WEEK AS A TROUGH OVER THE
EAST COAST BEGINS TO DIG. THUNDER HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE
FORECAST SINCE THE FRONT IS EXPECTED TO MOVE THROUGH OVERNIGHT WEDNESDAY
EARLY MORNING THURSDAY AND THUS LACKING ENOUGH SUPPORT EVEN
THOUGH LI`S MAY GO TO AROUND -1 IN SOUTHERN PORTIONS OF THE CWA.
BEST CHANCE OF PRECIP APPEARS TO BE ACROSS NORTHERN PORTIONS OF
THE CWA WITH ISENTROPIC LIFT WEDNESDAY NIGHT AND THURSDAY
MORNING. THIS FRONT SHOULD SWEEP ACROSS THE STRAITS OF FLORIDA.
OVER THE WEEKEND COLDER AND SOMEWHAT DRIER AIR WILL MOVE IN BEHIND
THE FRONT ALTHOUGH LATEST DATA SUGGEST THAT IT MIGHT NOT GET AS
COLD AS FORECAST AND THIS MAY NEED TO REVISED TONIGHT. ATTM IT
APPEARS THAT THE SUBTROPICAL JET MAY AID IN KEEPING LOWS FROM
GOING TOO LOW OUT ACROSS THE INTERIOR AS IT APPEARS THAT SOME
CLOUDS WILL REMAIN ACROSS THE AREA EVEN BEHIND THE FRONT.
YET
ANOTHER FRONT IS EXPECTED LATE IN THE FORECAST PACKAGE. THE LATEST
GFS SPEEDS UP THE FRONT FROM MONDAY TO SUNDAY, AND THIS MAY PUSH
MORE PRECIP INTO THE WEEKEND MAINLY ON SUNDAY.




http://www.srh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapCli ... 6&map.y=85
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