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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#161 Postby artist » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:22 pm

hey Ivanhater - good to see you too! There have been a few in the last couple of years! :cheesy:


Could this just maybe have some bearing on what is going on? This is from March of this year.

3. Key Events:
o Monday=s Keynote Address by VADM Conrad C. Lautenbacher, Jr., USN (Ret.), Under
Secretary of Commerce for Oceans and Atmosphere/Administrator of the National Oceanic
and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). VADM Lautenbacher began by highlighting the
success we have achieved with track forecasts, noting the 48-hour track forecasts have
improved 3.5 percent per year on average since 1985. Intensity forecasts, however, have
only improved about 0.8 percent per year—that’s where the challenge lies. Whether we’re
talking about data collection and observations; modeling and prediction; transition from
research to operations; or preparedness, response, and recovery; the key to future success is
collaborative partnerships and coordination among the federal agencies, non-government
organizations, the international community, the academic community, and the private sector.

One initiative that VADM Lautenbacher highlighted was the Geo-Targeted Alerting...


and a quote from Mr. Proenza from the same conference -
- Mr. Proenza began by stating that despite the high level of national concern over the
threat to life and the Nation’s economic well-being, insufficient resources prevents
needed operational science and technology infusion into the Nation’s hurricane warning
program. As a result, the tropical cyclone community is compelled to make
extraordinary efforts to “partner” our national talents and resources to meet operational
needs. In fact, the interagency strategic research plan for tropical cyclones cites the need
for large investments in operational hurricane research and development efforts. The
success of the plan, however, will rest on the federal agencies’ ability to develop and
fund an interagency implementation strategy under the sponsorship of the OFCM.

There is a lot more. This is from The 61st Interdepartmental Hurricane Conference (IHC)
There are a total of 5 pages. The link is -
http://www.ofcm.gov/ihc07/61ihc_summary ... 032107.pdf

I just am thinking this is much more complex than we are all seeing - maybe having to do with the future of operations as has been mentioned before, etc. Just thinking here. I'd love to get some others thoughts.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#162 Postby philnyc » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:35 pm

tolakram wrote:CNN top story now, sorry if this has been posted before.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/05/hurric ... index.html

Of particular interest to me:

Hurricane center staffers told CNN's John Zarrella they were not consulted before Proenza made the remarks and replacing the satellite would not be one of their priorities. But they said their dissatisfaction stems not only from Proenza's comments, but also from the environment at the center -- one of closed doors and the public airing of dirty laundry.

Those are 2 bozo nonos in management. :)



WOW! I wish my boss would let me go over his stuff before he makes public statements! I just can't figure out why he won't let me...
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#163 Postby Brent » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:38 pm

I guess it's bye-bye Proenza.

SHOUTING matches? They don't need this in the middle of the season.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#164 Postby Toadstool » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:48 pm

philnyc wrote:
Toadstool wrote:
DanKellFla wrote:One think I don't understand is the public nature of the three forecasters comments. If it were me, I would just keep my mouth shut.


They wanted a different boss... for whatever reason, I'm not sure, but it's easy to understand they didn't like his management style and have made their chess move.



But why not until after a visit by government officials?


That's why I mentioned "chess move." I don't think they could make their move politically before the visit... that gave them the needed cover.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#165 Postby artist » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:57 pm

philnyc wrote:
tolakram wrote:CNN top story now, sorry if this has been posted before.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/05/hurric ... index.html

Of particular interest to me:

Hurricane center staffers told CNN's John Zarrella they were not consulted before Proenza made the remarks and replacing the satellite would not be one of their priorities. But they said their dissatisfaction stems not only from Proenza's comments, but also from the environment at the center -- one of closed doors and the public airing of dirty laundry.

Those are 2 bozo nonos in management. :)



WOW! I wish my boss would let me go over his stuff before he makes public statements! I just can't figure out why he won't let me...



I had heard that he said he had passed it by them first. Who knows at this point. I have found another interesting item from May 22, 2007, News Conference on the 2007 Atlantic Hurricane Season Outlook
Release Date: May 22, 2007

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
Contact: 202-282-8010
Arlington, Va.

here it is, a question from a reporter - to both Admiral Lautenbacher & Bill Proenza and their responses -
Question: This is a question first for the Admiral, and then for Mr. Proenza. Admiral, a report by NOAA recently came out and said that seven years after the first operational use of ocean surface vector winds, the nation – that means NOAA – still doesn’t have a plan to operationally measure these winds after the QuikSCAT satellite is gone. What have you been doing for seven years? You’ve been there for five. Then the other question for Mr. Proenza is, what does this lack of data, if we were to lose QuikSCAT, mean for your forecasters?

Admiral Lautenbacher: There has been a plan, and the plan has been in place for a long time. We have two experimental satellites. One is QuikSCAT, and one is the Coriolis WindSat, which was launched not that long ago and will last longer than the scatterometer.

We have been learning, in the last couple of years, to use vector windfield data in our models, and it’s proven to be very important. Our original plan was to use the conical microwave imaging scanner to provide the vector windfield data. We are relooking at that, based on the recommendations of Mr. Proenza at this point, and I’ve asked my team to go back and review it again, along with our satellite experts, to see what would be practical, in terms of providing for continuity of scatterometry data versus switching to the Conical Microwave Imaging Sounder. So that’s the situation we have at this point. Thank you.

Mr. Proenza: The satellite known as QuikSCAT provides us operationally and has been used operationally since 2000, especially for our hurricane program. As it stands, it is a broad swath of data that comes across to us, that shows the envelope in which a storm may be existing; that indicates to us not only wind speed, but also wind direction. It gives us an estimate of the size of the tropical storm winds and the hurricane winds. It’s a vital piece of data to us in our operational National Hurricane Warning program, as it is for the high seas forecasting for not only the nation, but it is a service that’s used over 90 percent of the global oceans.

We have had several discussions along the lines of how we can increase the priority for a QuikSCAT replacement. I am encouraged in those conversations that we have had, and discussions we have had, that the nation will be moving ahead very constructively in coming up with a design next-generation QuikSCAT to replace the current, which is still operational QuikSCAT that we have at this time.

( it seems they were banking on the microwave imaging scanner to be able to do the job the quickscat does and that may be the basis of this entire controversy - seems Proenza thinks the quickscat is much better yet they have already invested in the microwave scanner)

http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1179922325611.shtm

Could this be the crux of the matter - the Admiral wants them to try to use the scanner and Proenza wants to stay with the quickscat?
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#166 Postby artist » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:14 pm

something else I just found - seems the Admiral says to speak freely with the media -

Conrad C. Lautenbacher, Jr., Vice Admiral, U.S. Navy (Ret.)states in his own words:

"Our media standards also reflect an open policy. We encourage our public affairs staff to keep abreast of media interests. I encourage our scientists to speak freely and openly."


Also - has it been mentioned that our senators are sponsoring a bill to have the quickscat be replaced?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1509:
Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Scatterometers on satellites are state-of-the-art radar instruments which operate by transmitting high-frequency microwave pulses to the ocean surface and measuring echoed radar pulses bounced back to the satellite.

(2) Scatterometers can acquire hundreds of times more observations of surface wind velocity each day than can ships and buoys, and are the only remote-sensing systems able to provide continuous, accurate and high-resolution measurements of both wind speeds and direction regardless of weather conditions.

(3) The Quick Scatterometer satellite (QuikSCAT) is an ocean-observing satellite launched on June 19, 1999, to replace the capability of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Scatterometer (NSCAT), an instrument which lost power in 1997, 9 months after launch in September 1996.

(4) The QuikSCAT satellite has the operational objective of improving weather forecasts near coastlines by using wind data in numerical weather-and-wave prediction, as well as improve hurricane warning and monitoring and acting as the next `El Nino watcher' for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

(5) The QuikSCAT satellite was built in just 12 months and was launched with a 3-year design life, but continues to perform per specifications, with its backup transmitter, as it enters into its 8th year--5 years past its projected lifespan.

(6) The QuikSCAT satellite provides daily coverage of 90 percent of the world's oceans, and its data has been a vital contribution to National Weather Service forecasts and warnings over water since 2000.

(7) Despite its continuing performance, the QuikSCAT satellite is well beyond its expected design life and a replacement is urgently needed because, according to the National Hurricane Center, without the QuikSCAT satellite--

(A) hurricane forecasting would be 16 percent less accurate 72 hours before hurricane landfall and 10 percent less accurate 48 hours before hurricane landfall resulting in--

(i) with a 16 percent loss of accuracy at 72 hours before landfall, the area expected to be under hurricane danger would rise from 197 miles to 228 miles on average; and

(ii) with a 10 percent loss of accuracy at 48 hours before landfall, the area expected to be under hurricane danger would rise from 136 miles to 150 miles on average; and

(B) greater inaccuracy of this type would lead to more `false alarm' evacuations along the Gulf Coast and Atlantic Coast and decrease the possibility of impacted populations sufficiently heeding mandatory evacuations.

(8) According to recommendations in the National Academies of Science report entitled `Decadal Survey', a next generation ocean surface wind vector satellite mission is needed during the three year period beginning in 2013.

(9) According to the National Hurricane Center, a next generation ocean surface vector wind satellite is needed to take advantage of current technologies that already exist to overcome current limitations of the QuikSCAT satellite and enhance the capabilities of the National Hurricane Center to better warn coastal residents of possible hurricanes... con'td at link above

Latest Major Action: 5/24/2007 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation.

It goes on from here- just click the link above to see the whole bill.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#167 Postby Toadstool » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:14 pm

I think all involved are terribly irresponsible, and of course it will lead to mistrust of their gov't forecasts. There's a reason why people say "close enough for gov't work." The NHC staff should not be reinforcing that opinion, but they are. Great, I trust them as much as I do the Post Office. Well done.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#168 Postby artist » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:19 pm

Toadstool - I can definately see where you are coming from. From what I have been reading my take, and I could be wrong - is that the quickscat has proven more reliable than the microwave scanner according to Bill Proenza and possibly the Admiral doesn't want to replace it since it is over $300 million to replace and they do have the microwave scanner which maybe he thinks should be just as good and that was the original thoughts upon launch. Just my own speculation. Don't quote me, but read all of the above and see what you get from it.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#169 Postby zlaxier » Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:22 am

Bill Proenza is acting like a man who doesn't care about his job. And you know why that is? He's 62 and has 35+ years of government service. He's under the civil service retirement system and can retire at any time with up to 80% of his salary in pension for the rest of his life.

That liberates a man and makes him do the things that needs to be done! Go Proenza!
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#170 Postby Frank2 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:13 am

The current situation is breaking my heart - here is this morning's story from The Miami Herald (it was the third story on CNN's American Morning):

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/162172.html

I'm glad that I did get to visit the NHC last year when all was quiet (weather-wise and other-wise), and, was able to have a good friendly visit with the few folks (some mentioned in the article) that are still there from my days with NOAA...

It seems nowdays my life's cherished memories are coming apart - I'm not sure what's going to fail me next...

I sincerely hope and pray that this unfortunate situation is resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction...

Frank
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#171 Postby wzrgirl1 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:29 am

His days are numbered.....it needs to be done quickly so that it doesn't interfere with hurricane season.....I don't agree with the decision FYI
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#172 Postby cycloneye » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:31 am

Frank2 wrote:The current situation is breaking my heart - here is this morning's story from The Miami Herald (it was the third story on CNN's American Morning):

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/162172.html

I'm glad that I did get to visit the NHC last year when all was quiet (weather-wise and other-wise), and, was able to have a good friendly visit with the few folks (some mentioned in the article) that are still there from my days with NOAA...

It seems nowdays my life's cherished memories are coming apart - I'm not sure what's going to fail me next...

I sincerely hope and pray that this unfortunate situation is resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction...

Frank

Frank,I edited the title to include the latest that you posted about the words from Bill Proenza to not resign. Instead of dealing with this internally,every day something new comes out to the media making things worse.In view of all the latest turmoil in there,I think that for the best of NHC he must go and have a new fresh mind that can settle things in there,even if it's now during the season.
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Re: NHC News Item=Three NHC forecasters want Proenza to go

#173 Postby weatherwindow » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:42 am

cycloneye wrote:
Frank2 wrote:The current situation is breaking my heart - here is this morning's story from The Miami Herald (it was the third story on CNN's American Morning):

http://www.miamiherald.com/459/story/162172.html

I'm glad that I did get to visit the NHC last year when all was quiet (weather-wise and other-wise), and, was able to have a good friendly visit with the few folks (some mentioned in the article) that are still there from my days with NOAA...

It seems nowdays my life's cherished memories are coming apart - I'm not sure what's going to fail me next...

I sincerely hope and pray that this unfortunate situation is resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction...

Frank

Frank,I edited the title to include the latest that you posted about the words from Bill Proenza to not resign. Instead of dealing with this internally,every day something new comes out to the media making things worse.In view of all the latest turmoil in there,I think that for the best of NHC he must go and have a new fresh mind that can settle things in there,even if it's now during the season.

luis...sadly i have to agree...again, as i stated in a response to a duplicate(sorry) post..i dealt with bill on a professional level in the late 90s..as director of the srh/fort worth...he, along with general kelly, saved both the nws/key west and the srh from closure..a very important moment for the fla keys..he impressed me as politically savvy and a good organizational operator, i cannot understand his current use of the "big stick" in this situation..that said, when your subordinates desert you and you have alienated your superiors, there is not any hope.....rich
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#174 Postby Frank2 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:28 am

Thanks, cycloneye - what a mess down there...

That's interesting to read from weatherwindow (Rich) - as mentioned yesterday, I can't recall having direct memories (in my two positions) of Mr. Proenza (unlike Dr. Gray, who I knew directly), but, glad someone here can shed some light on what Mr. Proenza has done in the past...

I'm tempted to pry with those I still know down there (though I scared myself last night in worrying that what I post here, might get me a knock on the door at home by someone serving a Gag Order, since I'm still within "the system", and, post through a network server), but, for whatever the reason (aside from what is publicly stated), there are some serious issues between this Director's way of doing things and his staff.

In fact, one of the names listed in the article is someone who I know very well for many years (this person was one of two people who hired me, in fact), and, I know this same person would not do someone so radical, if there were not a very valid reason...

Golly - perhaps this is an overstatement, but, I feel like Robert the Bruce in Braveheart - it's always hard to see those suffer who you also admire...
Last edited by Frank2 on Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#175 Postby Frank2 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:46 am

Uh-oh - someone here in the office just tapped me on the shoulder and said that a reporter is on the phone asking for me...

He was just kidding, but, by his comment, he said that I looked at him as if he had a lobster growing on his head, so, it just shows how this has affected me...

Glad I can still laugh about it all though...
Last edited by Frank2 on Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#176 Postby Downdraft » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:52 am

Okay enough is enough. These types of battles should have been fought behind closed doors and preferably in the middle of January or February NOT going into the teeth of what is expected to be a busy hurricane season. While as I've said before I support Dr. Proenza's position of free speech I do think he has lost his ability to lead. This office is far to important to the nation to be portrayed as a bunch of cubicled, weather geeks yelling at each other over the walls. If this family fight can't be resolved quickly I would suggest the GAO inspector general's office get mandated by Congress to go down there and provide answers on how to clean it up. This would probably include a recommendation to remove Dr. Proenza and some harsh letters of reprimand to the other forecasters that have now chosen to hang the clothesline in public view. Above all the NHC requires a perception of professional credibility to make everyone take it seriously. Since this office does serve a vital national interest and NOAA obviously can't keep peace in its' own family Congress does have the right to investigate and recommend changes. I wouldn't even expect this from Elliot Abrahams or Joe Bastardi both of whom must be gloating with glee.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#177 Postby crownweather » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:57 am

After the events of this week, I found myself thinking after reading the various TWOs, whether they are putting their full energies into the outlooks or if the TWOs are being half-arsed. I know its a very crazy thought and I know it isn't true and that the NHC will be professional no matter what....but....if I'm thinking this and questioning the TWOs, can you imagine what the "general public" must think?? I truly hope a resolution is found very, very soon!!

Rob Lightbown/Crown Weather Services
http://www.crownweather.com
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#178 Postby Frank2 » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:59 am

I thought of that, too, but, we can only hope that it's being done right (though likely under duress) - fortunately, that's the good thing with satellite photos - they tell their own story (still quiet)...

Frank
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza= "I am not going to resign"

#179 Postby jasons2k » Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:28 am

I found this quote by someone on the Miami Herald comments page. I think he makes some good points:

Here are a couple questions each of you, as a taxpayer, should be asking of your federal government?

1. Why is the senior management of NOAA, the parent agency of the National Weather Service and the National Hurricane Center, spending so much time discrediting Mr. Proenza, when they have misspent nearly $7 Billion of your dollars in procuring/building new weather satellites themselves? The satellite contractor was still paid, even though the satellites will not be available on time or within budget.

2. Why is the same talented National Hurricane Staff, who worked under Mr. Max Mayfield, just now asking for Mr. Proenza's ouster AFTER the surprise visit from NOAA senior staff and the DOC lawyer?
I suspect that there is a little intimidation from NOAA going on.

Despite what is being played out in the press, it should be known that Mr. Proenza is working for the benefit of the entire U.S. citizenary, especially those who live all along the coast of the U.S. It is time to save one of the good guys in government.

Posted by: Kev


At this point, I don't know if Proenza's position can be salvaged. With his staff signing this petition, I don't see an alternative. It's too bad IMO. I think he could have done some good in the long run. It just seems that NOAA has a stated mission/vision for the future and Proenza is against it. Compile that with the fact he ratted-out their bogus anniversary celebration and he probably had the equivalent of a mob contract placed on him.

I also find it interesting that the media is now buying into Jeff Masters' comments when they are clearly opposite of his own position a few days ago. I would encourage anyone new to this thread to go back a few pages and see the wonderful compare/contrast of Masters' comments that were posted.

Maybe when the dust settles Derek can shed some light on this. I'm sure he is still in touch with John, who also signed the petition. I found that most interesting...
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#180 Postby x-y-no » Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:33 am

OK ... I was initially entirely sypathetic to Proenza's point of view, but as this drags on I have to agree with those who say he's lost the ability to lead ... this is spiralling further out of control every day and it's just not good for anyone at this ponit.
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