Excellent analysis on steering curents by Jeff Masters 7/27

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
User avatar
windstorm99
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 1578
Age: 47
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 8:10 am
Location: Miami, Florida
Contact:

Excellent analysis on steering curents by Jeff Masters 7/27

#1 Postby windstorm99 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:53 pm

There are no threat areas in the tropical Atlantic to discuss, and none of the computer models are forecasting tropical storm formation over the coming week. However, there is there a major development to report--it appears likely that a major shift in the weather pattern will occur in late July across the Northern Hemisphere. If the GFS model is correct, the trough of low pressure that has been consistently in place over the Eastern U.S. will finally move off, to be replaced by a ridge of high pressure (Figure 1). This would bring a hurricane steering pattern much like we saw in 2004 and 2005, with increased risk for the Gulf of Mexico and reduced risk for the U.S. East Coast from the Carolinas northward. The GFS model has been inconsistent in its prediction of the timing of this shift, but has been persistent enough about it that I'm forecasting a 70% likelihood of this major pattern shift occurring by the end of July. Such a shift would bring the western U.S. some relief from the current heat wave, and bring high heat and air pollution problems to the Midwest and East Coast. How long such a shift might last is impossible to predict--it could last for a week, or could remain in place for the remainder of hurricane season. I'll have an updated forecast on this pattern shift Monday, when I issue my bi-weekly hurricane outlook

Jeff Masters Complete blog here

Image

Updated Dr.Masters Blog 7/14/07...

The long-range GFS model continues to forecast that the persistent trough of low pressure that has been present over the Eastern U.S. the past two months will finally move off, to be replaced by a ridge of high pressure by late July. This would bring a hurricane steering pattern much like we saw in 2004 and 2005, with increased risk for the Gulf of Mexico and reduced risk for the U.S. East Coast from the Carolinas northward. The east coast of Florida would remain at normal to above normal risk.
Last edited by windstorm99 on Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
HollynLA
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 836
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: South Louisiana

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#2 Postby HollynLA » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:23 pm

I've heard this as well and it's certainly not good news. We'll just have to sit tight and cringe through another storm season.
0 likes   

Berwick Bay

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#3 Postby Berwick Bay » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:24 pm

Yeah, no surprise here, believe that Masters is probably on to something important. Thinking that as far as landfall goes, we're in one of those smaller patterns within a pattern. Cycle of north central gulf coast important or major strikes which probably began in '02 with Isidore and Lili major storms which ran into hostile conditions before affecting the La. Coast, then in earnest with Ivan in '04 along Al coast, then Dennis, Katrina, and Rita stretching from the Fl Panhandle west to Tex. During this time the East Coast has not been as active (Exception Isabel for NC north to Maryland, and Cat 1 Ophelia along NC in '05). But the active period for NC was in the '90's when they caught about everything. North Central Gulf Coast should remain in this pattern, I think. Sticking to my guns with my prediction from back in May of best bet for strike being New Iberia, La. and a close second being Pascagoula Miss.
0 likes   

User avatar
Jam151
Category 1
Category 1
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:09 pm

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#4 Postby Jam151 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:46 pm

it would be nice if jeff masters looked at more than just 1 model run of GFS. the past 2 runs of that model (06Z and 12Z) show a big trough locking in the west/central atlantic in the long run. here's the latest 384hr GFS

Image

the euro shows a very similar pattern setting up, which is a great long range model. keep watching future runs but right now I think masters is wrong
0 likes   

Opal storm

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#5 Postby Opal storm » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:57 pm

I have noticed I have been getting afternoon thunderstorms almost every afternoon for the past few weeks, unlike the drought we had in May and much of June. Wonder if it has anything to do with this apparant pattern change.
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#6 Postby x-y-no » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:58 pm

Jam151 wrote:it would be nice if jeff masters looked at more than just 1 model run of GFS.


Jeff Masters wrote:The GFS model has been inconsistent in its prediction of the timing of this shift, but has been persistent enough about it that I'm forecasting a 70% likelihood of this major pattern shift occurring by the end of July.



Sure looks to me like he's saying he looked at more tan one run.

And come on - how credible is it really to think that he doesn't look at many if not most runs?

There's fair reason to disagree with his prediction (and really, despite the 70% figure, he's hedging his bet quite a bit by saying it could be a one week thing or much longer) but I don't see any basis for accusing him of such gross negligence.


Furthermore, that mid-level trough you're showing is is offshore, not over the eastern US, and it has a decent 588 height ridge under it.
0 likes   

cpdaman
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:44 am
Location: SPB county (gulf stream)

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#7 Postby cpdaman » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:05 pm

i am not usualy impressed by mr. masters sometimes he is right sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he makes it look like he was right or not wrong by editing what he forecast without letting others know

with that being said is it possible the trough displacing from the eastern united states (being replaced by high pressure) will move east and form a weakness around 60 W and influence more recurve's or is this a very low chance? just asking i am not sure
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#8 Postby x-y-no » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:15 pm

cpdaman wrote:with that being said is it possible the trough displacing from the eastern united states (being replaced by high pressure) will move east and form a weakness around 60 W and influence more recurve's or is this a very low chance? just asking i am not sure


Well, we all know that the extreme long range of any model is very flaky, but looking at the above 500mb height chart combined with what it shows lower down:

Image

note the 588 height line in the subtropics extends all the way across the southern Caribbean, whilst there's lower level ridging well under that trough axis in the 40's. So I'd say the trough (as depicted here) would have no influence at all on any tropical system, since any developing system would be well past the trough axis before it develops enough to be influenced by the higher level flow.
0 likes   

User avatar
Wthrman13
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:44 pm
Location: West Lafayette, IN
Contact:

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#9 Postby Wthrman13 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:22 pm

Looking at a single deterministic forecast at 384 hours by any current model is, in my opinion, maybe only slightly better than throwing darts at a board blindfolded. At that range, to get any useful predictability, one needs to look at ensemble forecasts. One look at the spaghetti plots from an ensemble run for a 384 hour lead time I think is enough to convince anyone that deterministic forecasts at this time period are nearly worthless.

All this is to say that that 384 hour prediction of a trough in the Atlantic could just as easily end up being 180 degrees out of phase, that is to say, completely wrong.
0 likes   

User avatar
x-y-no
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8359
Age: 65
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#10 Postby x-y-no » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:27 pm

Wthrman13 wrote:Looking at a single deterministic forecast at 384 hours by any current model is, in my opinion, maybe only slightly better than throwing darts at a board blindfolded. At that range, to get any useful predictability, one needs to look at ensemble forecasts. One look at the spaghetti plots from an ensemble run for a 384 hour lead time I think is enough to convince anyone that deterministic forecasts at this time period are nearly worthless.

All this is to say that that 384 hour prediction of a trough in the Atlantic could just as easily end up being 180 degrees out of phase, that is to say, completely wrong.



No argument. And I admit that, since I've been travelling, I haven't kept up with things as well as I usually do.

But the passage from Dr. Masters which I quoted above at the very least strongly implies that he's not looking at just one run, but observing the trend over some time - and I would argue that that, in combination with use of ensembles, can be useful even in the fairly long range.
0 likes   

User avatar
MGC
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 5903
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 9:05 pm
Location: Pass Christian MS, or what is left.

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#11 Postby MGC » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:01 pm

I've been wondering how long this current pattern would remain. I was hoping that it would last though the season. I know a pattern change will happen eventually. I the past I have observed that once a pattern has established itself by June it seems to remain in place the rest of the season. Therefore, I suggest that the GFS is wrong and the pattern will not shift east. This is just my hunch based on watching the weather the past 40 years. The trend is your friend....MGC
0 likes   

Stormcenter
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 6684
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:27 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#12 Postby Stormcenter » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:13 pm

You need to first have lemons before you can make lemonade.
Any pattern changes won't mean much if there is nothing out there to steer toward the N. GOM. The pattern he mentions was there last season on certain occasions but there never was anything significant to steer toward the Northern GOM. I like Jeff Masters but I think he's
crying wolf here for no reason. I guess he has to think of something write about everyday.
Hey just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Stormcenter on Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 likes   

Stormcenter
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 6684
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:27 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#13 Postby Stormcenter » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:14 pm

MGC wrote:I've been wondering how long this current pattern would remain. I was hoping that it would last though the season. I know a pattern change will happen eventually. I the past I have observed that once a pattern has established itself by June it seems to remain in place the rest of the season. Therefore, I suggest that the GFS is wrong and the pattern will not shift east. This is just my hunch based on watching the weather the past 40 years. The trend is your friend....MGC


I agree 100% but even if it did see my post.
0 likes   

Opal storm

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#14 Postby Opal storm » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:32 pm

Stormcenter wrote:crying wolf here for no reason. I guess he has to think of something write about everyday.
Hey just my 2 cents.
I don't know about that, he's usually pretty conservative on his discussions. I've never really seen him overhype something in desperation to keep his audience like some forecasters.

We'll see though.
0 likes   

wobblehead
Tropical Storm
Tropical Storm
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:51 pm
Location: Mobile.Al

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#15 Postby wobblehead » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:49 pm

Sorry about starting another post about this folks. The old man over looked this one.
I do not take much stock in the accuracy of extended range forecast but I do find the reasonings interesting. Experience tells me summer weather patterns such as the conus trough are for the most part established and may fluctuate short term but real change comes with the change of season.
Master's presents good reasoning and I'm sure his update on Monday will be interesting.
0 likes   

User avatar
southerngale
Retired Staff
Retired Staff
Posts: 27418
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:27 am
Location: Southeast Texas (Beaumont area)

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#16 Postby southerngale » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:26 pm

wobblehead wrote:Sorry about starting another post about this folks. The old man over looked this one.
I do not take much stock in the accuracy of extended range forecast but I do find the reasonings interesting. Experience tells me summer weather patterns such as the conus trough are for the most part established and may fluctuate short term but real change comes with the change of season.
Master's presents good reasoning and I'm sure his update on Monday will be interesting.


N/P wobblehead. We just didn't need two of them about the exact same subject. :)
0 likes   

User avatar
windstorm99
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 1578
Age: 47
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 8:10 am
Location: Miami, Florida
Contact:

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#17 Postby windstorm99 » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:39 am

Bump to add updated Jeff Masters blog.
0 likes   

User avatar
storms in NC
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2338
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Location: Wallace,NC 40 miles NE of Wilm
Contact:

#18 Postby storms in NC » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:42 am

Well he was board and had to wirte some thing. I was looking at this run and you see the B-high runing all over the place.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... loop.shtml
0 likes   

Frank2
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 4061
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:47 pm

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#19 Postby Frank2 » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:49 am

I'll guess and say that this is only a very temporary shift, if anything - just over the past two weeks, some OCM's were saying that a ridge would build in from the Atlantic, and, it has to some extent, but, the strong troughs continue to remain over the upper midwest and northeast, and, little change is forecast in the near future...

Since this is a very long-term weather pattern that has been in place off and on since 2002 (per the very cold northeast winters in at least 3 of the past 5 years - also due to the same pattern of deep troughs), it's hard to believe that very much will change over the next few weeks, but, it's always possible...

Here's the current 10-day GFS that shows one deep trough exiting - with another moving eastward from the Canadian plains...

http://weather.unisys.com/gfsx/loop/gfsx_500p_loop.html
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

Re: Jeff Masters- Major steering current shift.

#20 Postby Stephanie » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:06 am

We normally are affected by a Bermuda High, sometimes for several weeks, from this point on in the season.

We have been very fortunate so far that Mother Nature has shown us some pity and after giving us some sweltering 90+ days, the rain and the subsequent cool down and lower humidity as been welcome relief. I think it's been a very nice summer so far. I'm a little surprised that we haven't seen a Bermuda High set up already. Something feels different about this summer so far. Actually, 2007 has been quite unusual for the EC - everything that should've happened by now is delayed by about a month.
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: redingtonbeach and 46 guests