NHC Director Bill Proenza re-assig,Ed Rappaport new director

[vbhoutex]

Please continue this discussion without the politics involved that I see popping up. There is no need to make this a Dems. vx or whomever vs. discussion. Keep it about the persons and agencies involved and keep the political opinions out of it please.

well, i thought it was fair game considering the article... and the others have bashed the white house in this thread and nothing was said... i mean considering this is a political debate...

sorry for any problems


Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com
Hurricane Intercept Research Team

Jesse, this was directed at everyone, not you alone. I didn't just read your posts and post this. I think this can continue to be discussed without the bashing and the political opinions.

With "everyone" getting involved now and with Proenza's actions this could get very interesting. My biggest concern though is the NHC itself and how they will be percieved and how this will work out in the end. I know the scientists there will do their jobs and do them as well as they always have, but will the general public see that?

[vacanechaser]

Please continue this discussion without the politics involved that I see popping up. There is no need to make this a Dems. vx or whomever vs. discussion. Keep it about the persons and agencies involved and keep the political opinions out of it please.

well, i thought it was fair game considering the article... and the others have bashed the white house in this thread and nothing was said... i mean considering this is a political debate...

sorry for any problems


Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com
Hurricane Intercept Research Team

Jesse, this was directed at everyone, not you alone. I didn't just read your posts and post this. I think this can continue to be discussed without the bashing and the political opinions.

With "everyone" getting involved now and with Proenza's actions this could get very interesting. My biggest concern though it the NHC itself and how they will be percieved and how this will work out in the end. I know the scientitsts there will do their jobs and do them as well as they always have, but will the general public see that?

just trying to clear it up... i understand and thats ok with me... just making sure..


Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com
Hurricane Intercept Research Team

[Regit]

I think people are worrying about something that shouldn't be worried about.

Let's just speak hypothetically and say that some hearing, which some forecasters are supposed to attend, is scheduled for August 22. If a storm is threatening land come August 22, does anyone here really think the hearing would still be held?

As for the distraction, they work for a bureaucratic agency. This is just business as usual to them.

[Downdraft]

I think I'm seeing two different issues in these posts. One, should Proenza been fired in the first place and, two, was it appropriately handled? My take is this as goes the firing. If a manager, any manager, has lost the ability to lead or direct and the cause of this loss is from his own actions or deeds than higher authority not only has the right but the duty to remove him/her. Were Proenza's public actions about all of this appropriate for a man in his position? Now bring on Avila and Franklin, whom I lovingly refer to as Brutus and Cassius, who walk out onto the front lawn of the NHC and begin hanging out all the dirty linen in the bright Miami sun, appropriate? Given the mess created by the players down here no wonder Washington did what they did. I don't see how they had any other choice. It's a shame everything in government with a 3 letter initials is now suspect; FBI, CIA, HSA, NSA, (FEMA has 4 but they make the list) and even NHC now. Proenza's biggest mistake was to mix science and the intentional exaggeration of fact with politics. The other scientists at the NHC had every right to question his data, however, unfortunately zero right to question it in such a manner as a press conference. They of all people should have known the outflow from their little storm was going to kick up an even bigger one with untold consequences. All parties collectively have now eroded the confidence of the public and private sectors in their abilities to carry out the mission. That confidence can be regained by an act of God spinning in from the Atlantic Basin it will not be regained sitting in congressional committee rooms. If you think there is hell to pay now let them blow a forecast or a landfall and then you will really see a storm.

[Berwick Bay]

Yes Downdraft, I guess you and I for the most part agree. The way this dismissal was handled was disgraceful. Unannounced inspections which only happened after Proenza's sat comments, the inspections apparently having nothing to do with that. Followed by inappropriate comments (to the press) by forecasters, which gave the appearance of being orchestrated by higher ups who had already determined that Proenza must go. All of this in regards to a director of an extemely important govt. agency. Its just wasn't right, and its why I suspected last week that we might get a congressional inquiry out of this.

[Air Force Met]

Yes Downdraft, I guess you and I for the most part agree. The way this dismissal was handled was disgraceful. Unannounced inspections which only happened after Proenza's sat comments, the inspections apparently having nothing to do with that. Followed by inappropriate comments (to the press) by forecasters, which gave the appearance of being orchestrated by higher ups who had already determined that Proenza must go. All of this in regards to a director of an extemely important govt. agency. Its just wasn't right, and its why I suspected last week that we might get a congressional inquiry out of this.

There was more to this than the quikscat issue. Proenza also wanted to take the issuing of hurricane warnings OUT of the hands of the NHC and give the responsibility to the individual WFO's. The NHC would still issue forecasts and watches but individual WFO's would issue warnings. In other words...he tried to make the NHC run like the SPC. And in typical Proenza fashion he tried to ramrod it down the throats of those who worked for him.

Anyone can see how that would upset the apple-cart...and...IMO...is a BAD idea.

[flwxwatcher]

Yes Downdraft, I guess you and I for the most part agree. The way this dismissal was handled was disgraceful. Unannounced inspections which only happened after Proenza's sat comments, the inspections apparently having nothing to do with that. Followed by inappropriate comments (to the press) by forecasters, which gave the appearance of being orchestrated by higher ups who had already determined that Proenza must go. All of this in regards to a director of an extemely important govt. agency. Its just wasn't right, and its why I suspected last week that we might get a congressional inquiry out of this.

There was more to this than the quikscat issue. Proenza also wanted to take the issuing of hurricane warnings OUT of the hands of the NHC and give the responsibility to the individual WFO's. The NHC would still issue forecasts and watches but individual WFO's would issue warnings. In other words...he tried to make the NHC run like the SPC. And in typical Proenza fashion he tried to ramrod it down the throats of those who worked for him.

Anyone can see how that would upset the apple-cart...and...IMO...is a BAD idea.

Hmmmm.
I hadn't heard that little tidbit. Like I said before there obviously was alot more too this then we know and I am sure in the coming days more info will filter out..

[TheShrimper]

I don't think it was a bad idea at all. The NHC's thinking would still be taken as gospel, or at least should be by the public. That said, thier backsides are covered if a forecast does not pan out. The Keys were evacuated many times in a 2 year period, some of those were issued during peak holidays, and other revenue generating timeframes. The NHC caught hell for the after the fact of crying wolf, and they didn't deserve it. That was their job to inform the masses of the possibilities, whether the threat transpired or not. The same happened here with Charley hitting Lee and Charlotte County instead of Pinellas and Hillsborough. Most everyone was shocked at what happened here, even though there was no reason to be so. Let the NHC issue thier pre-warning advisories, and let the local weather offices put thier asses on the line to make a call. There is always complaining after the fact, let the NHC make available all the info to the localities effected, and put those individuals reputations and professionalism on the line. I will guaranntee you that there will be not much swaying from what the Coral Gables folks say.

[philnyc]

and why would this be the case Miamicanes? Do you know the entire story? If so, please share it with us. If not, you should not even be commenting on this matter (notice I have not commented, since I am not 100% sure as to what is going on) as you are merely riling up the masses

The forecasters at the NHC have a job: to forecast. They should focus on doing their job, and not Bill Proenza's. The employees of the NHC do not dictate by petitions the hiring and firing of the Director position. This is a dangerous precedent being set. Who wants the Director position now that they have to look over their shoulder to make sure the forecasters approve of their actions. Nonsense. Nobody is asking the employees to sleep with Bill Proenza. Just go to work and do your job. Life is tough. They can get over him AND it.

I've got to admit it. As far as the way it was done and the precedent they set, it's bizzare. I've never met anyone who organized their employees into a group, went to the media, and requested the boss be fired. Although I wish I had that power sometimes, being a manager who reports to managers myself, I wouldn't wan't my employees telling me how to do my job. If they felt he was hurting THEM SPECIFICALLY, they should have gone to a director above him IN A PRIVATE MEETING and asked that he be reassigned or talked to. Although I'm still puzzled as to why they did it, the fact that they used the media as an aid to get rid of him should make anyone who is a manager quake in her/his boots. When I've had an intractable problem with my manager, I always got a private meeting with his manager and complained. I wouldn't dream of going to the press, which, by the way, is a firm rule under all corporations and government agencies in this country. The normal procedure that's taken in this country if you break the rule of speaking to the media about internal problems is that you are fired immediately. Why were they allowed to break it?

[philnyc]

Yes Downdraft, I guess you and I for the most part agree. The way this dismissal was handled was disgraceful. Unannounced inspections which only happened after Proenza's sat comments, the inspections apparently having nothing to do with that. Followed by inappropriate comments (to the press) by forecasters, which gave the appearance of being orchestrated by higher ups who had already determined that Proenza must go. All of this in regards to a director of an extemely important govt. agency. Its just wasn't right, and its why I suspected last week that we might get a congressional inquiry out of this.

There was more to this than the quikscat issue. Proenza also wanted to take the issuing of hurricane warnings OUT of the hands of the NHC and give the responsibility to the individual WFO's. The NHC would still issue forecasts and watches but individual WFO's would issue warnings. In other words...he tried to make the NHC run like the SPC. And in typical Proenza fashion he tried to ramrod it down the throats of those who worked for him.

Anyone can see how that would upset the apple-cart...and...IMO...is a BAD idea.

Can you back that up?

[philnyc]

BTW, Berwick is right. There are definitely going to be hearings. Bet the rent on it. If you think it's ugly now, wait until the hearings. Somebody is going to really regret that they started this removal process, whoever it was...

Oh, and P.S. I love and respect the NHC forecasters, don't know a heck of a lot about Proenza, and am really sorry that this happened. I am sad about all of this and wish it never happened. I just know that this is going to escalate.

[vacanechaser]

and why would this be the case Miamicanes? Do you know the entire story? If so, please share it with us. If not, you should not even be commenting on this matter (notice I have not commented, since I am not 100% sure as to what is going on) as you are merely riling up the masses

The forecasters at the NHC have a job: to forecast. They should focus on doing their job, and not Bill Proenza's. The employees of the NHC do not dictate by petitions the hiring and firing of the Director position. This is a dangerous precedent being set. Who wants the Director position now that they have to look over their shoulder to make sure the forecasters approve of their actions. Nonsense. Nobody is asking the employees to sleep with Bill Proenza. Just go to work and do your job. Life is tough. They can get over him AND it.

I've got to admit it. As far as the way it was done and the precedent they set, it's bizzare. I've never met anyone who organized their employees into a group, went to the media, and requested the boss be fired. Although I wish I had that power sometimes, being a manager who reports to managers myself, I wouldn't wan't my employees telling me how to do my job. If they felt he was hurting THEM SPECIFICALLY, they should have gone to a director above him IN A PRIVATE MEETING and asked that he be reassigned or talked to. Although I'm still puzzled as to why they did it, the fact that they used the media as an aid to get rid of him should make anyone who is a manager quake in her/his boots. When I've had an intractable problem with my manager, I always got a private meeting with his manager and complained. I wouldn't dream of going to the press, which, by the way, is a firm rule under all corporations and government agencies in this country. The normal procedure that's taken in this country if you break the rule of speaking to the media about internal problems is that you are fired immediately. Why were they allowed to break it?

Once again people either dont listen, or read.... they- the forecasters said in their statements that they had gone over his head and that process was already underway... thats why the forecasters state that the investigation team was sent because of their actions..they came out and said that he had misrepresented their views or statements and undermind the trust in the nhc..they wanted to make the other side of the story clear as they were being questioned.. . you jumped in on Derek saying they should do their job... it sounded to me like they were trying to make it known they could do their job... i think derek would know a little more than you and me as he is close to whats going on....


Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com
Hurricane Intercept Research Team

[Thunder44]

Well at least with the congressional hearings, we will probably learn more why these forecasters want Bill out and what is been going at NHC, that we don't know about.

[philnyc]

I've got to admit it. As far as the way it was done and the precedent they set, it's bizzare. I've never met anyone who organized their employees into a group, went to the media, and requested the boss be fired. Although I wish I had that power sometimes, being a manager who reports to managers myself, I wouldn't wan't my employees telling me how to do my job. If they felt he was hurting THEM SPECIFICALLY, they should have gone to a director above him IN A PRIVATE MEETING and asked that he be reassigned or talked to. Although I'm still puzzled as to why they did it, the fact that they used the media as an aid to get rid of him should make anyone who is a manager quake in her/his boots. When I've had an intractable problem with my manager, I always got a private meeting with his manager and complained. I wouldn't dream of going to the press, which, by the way, is a firm rule under all corporations and government agencies in this country. The normal procedure that's taken in this country if you break the rule of speaking to the media about internal problems is that you are fired immediately. Why were they allowed to break it?[/quote]

Once again people either dont listen, or read.... they- the forecasters said in their statements that they had gone over his head and that process was already underway... thats why the forecasters state that the investigation team was sent because of their actions..they came out and said that he had misrepresented their views or statements and undermind the trust in the nhc..they wanted to make the other side of the story clear as they were being questioned.. . you jumped in on Derek saying they should do their job... it sounded to me like they were trying to make it known they could do their job... i think derek would know a little more than you and me as he is close to whats going on....


Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com
Hurricane Intercept Research Team[/quote]


Please don't make a personal statement (insult) about me that I don't listen or read. I don't think that that is fair. I asked a simple question: why were they allowed to bring a personal dispute into the media? It's not about fair or unfair. It's against government rules. And YOU and I would be fired for it.

I thought we were supposed to keep it geared to the facts and always avoid personal attacks?

P.S. I like Derek and enjoy reading him. So don't imply that I "jumped in on" Derek, whatever that's supposed to mean.

[Toadstool]

Well at least with the congressional hearings, we will probably learn more why these forecasters want Bill out and what is been going at NHC, that we don't know about.

Yes, it will be nice to find out what is really going on instead of all the excuses. In the meantime, we can all ignore any outlooks from $$Avila$$ or $$Franklin$$. Convenient they sign their names so we know which reports to read.

[vbhoutex]

Well at least with the congressional hearings, we will probably learn more why these forecasters want Bill out and what is been going at NHC, that we don't know about.

Yes, it will be nice to find out what is really going on instead of all the excuses. In the meantime, we can all ignore any outlooks from $$Avila$$ or $$Franklin$$. Convenient they sign their names so we know which reports to read.

I hope this is done in jest!! If it isn't then consider this your first warning. We do not allow attacks such as this on professional agencies or their personnel.

[philnyc]

Well at least with the congressional hearings, we will probably learn more why these forecasters want Bill out and what is been going at NHC, that we don't know about.

Yes, it will be nice to find out what is really going on instead of all the excuses. In the meantime, we can all ignore any outlooks from $$Avila$$ or $$Franklin$$. Convenient they sign their names so we know which reports to read.

I hope this is done in jest!! If it isn't then consider this your first warning. We do not allow attacks such as this on professional agencies or their personnel.

I'm sure he was kidding.

[Frank2]

I wasn't aware of the transferring NHC warnings to WFO's idea, so, the NHC forecaster's angst makes more sense, having read this...

Still, no one should expect, hearing or no, that Mr. Proenza will be reinstated at the NHC - it's more likely that he'll retire quietly, since he is already eligible for full retirement...

[Berwick Bay]

Frank, the transferring of warnings has been added to the thread, but that really can't be confirmed at this point, its just hearsay. You're right of course, that there's no way Proenza will ever be reinstated, however, it doesn't look like he's going to go "quietly into the night". Depending on what comes out of the hearings, we could have big, big, changes on how the weather offices are structured, and how information from them is presented to the public.

[HURAKAN]

Proenza To Testify At Hearing On NHC Management



A congressional subcommittee has scheduled a hearing on Thursday to address the management crisis at the National Hurricane Center.

Ousted Director Bill Proenza is expected to testify.

Officials said they anticipate the meeting to cause added tension between Proenza and his former staff.

Proenza was reassigned after nearly half of the hurricane center's 50 employees called for his firing.

Former Deputy Director Ed Rappaport is now acting director of the National Hurricane Center.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/13695629/detail.html

The hurricane created by Proenza's truthful arguments continues to gain strengh.