La Nina may NOT come afterall

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La Nina may NOT come afterall

#1 Postby Anonymous » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:33 pm

Since El Nino fizzled out a month or two ago, neutral ENSO conditions have dominated the Pacific. Still no signs of La Nina. In fact, it's beginning to look less likely we'll even see one arrive in time for the season. Here's why...

Image

In this subsurface equatorial Pacific image, notice how the cool tongue of anomalies has faded dramatically this month, and warm anomalies are now developing where it used to be. Remember, a La Nina consists of cool temperatures, and it is necessary to have a substantial subsurface cool tongue for one to develop.


Image

Even the surface equatorial Pacific SSTAs have jumped back up over the past few weeks, especially in Nino 4 region. This is in association with increased easterly winds in the western equatorial Pacific, something that isn't found in La Ninas either.

Another crucial ENSO factor is the Southern Oscillation Index. Simply a 30-day average measure of pressures at Tahti/Darwin Austrailia, positive SOI values tend to correlate with La Nina, and vice versa. The values over the past few days have been around -14...VERY low. Although it can be partially explained by a wet MJO over the region, for a developing La Nina you'd need consistent normal or above normal values.

Even the CPC and BOM have both backed off on calling for La Nina development.
http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/predic ... xus05.html
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/

Does this mean the probabilities of La Nina this season are 0? Nope. But they've certainly decreased. Actually, I still think there's a fair chance that we WILL see a weak La Nina form in late summer or early fall. Let's take the year 1995 (not TC activity wise, but ENSO wise)...during the Spring, El Nino dissipated and a cool tongue looked to be well established. However, during June and July, the cool tongued weakened, and the SSTAs shot up temporarily. Kinda similar to what's happening right now. Later in the summer, La Nina ended up developing. A similar scenario *could* happen this year. The only possible advantage that 1995 had was the stratospheric QBO winds were westerly, which aids in La Nina formation. This year, it's easterly. Whether that will make a huge difference or not, I do not know.

But my point is, we'll need to see some cooling of the SSTAs in the equatorial Pacific (surface and subsurface both) within the next few weeks. Indeed, the positive MJO passing through the area will be supportive for this to happen. So there is still plenty of hope I suppose. But, if we don't see cooling soon, then La Nina probably won't arrive in time to have an enhancing influence on the Atlantic hurricane season. And since TWW and I were the first to predict weak La Nina way back in November...we'll be the first to say BUST if it does not come. :oops:
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Postby cycloneye » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:37 pm

But remember IF la nina doesn't appear there haved been many neutral years that the atlantic hurricane season has been active. :)
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#3 Postby JetMaxx » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:55 pm

That's correct Luis, and as we all know, it only takes one blockbuster to make a hurricane season memorable and deadly (Andrew, Donna, 1935 Labor Day hurricane, etc).

I have a very bad feeling....just a hunch.
The SST's are already nice and hot around the Florida peninsula and adjacent waters. I honestly hope my hunch is wrong....but statistics don't lie :(

Perry
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#4 Postby Colin » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:22 pm

Perry, I have a bad feeling, too... "just a hunch." hehehehehe

This does look to be a very dangerous season along the East Coast... even if a few storms hit or one storm hits. :o
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La Nina / El Nino

#5 Postby wxman57 » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:32 pm

Studies have shown that there's really no correlation between weak La Nina, neutral, and weak El Nino (like last year) conditions in the Pacific with tropical storm activity in the Atlantic Basin. There was a good article about this in the Bulletin of the AMS a year or so ago. The researcher only found evidence of decreased seasonal activity with stronger El Nino conditions (as in 1997, 1983). So, regardless of whether or not there is a mild La Nina, neutral conditons, or even a very weak El Nino, conditions in the eastern Pacific should not hinder development in the Atlantic Basin.

Focus on the <b><i>flow patterns</b></i> out there. Take a look now - the Bermuda high is ridging westward into the eastern Gulf. Should anything develop in the lower latitudes it'll be steered right into the U.S. (the central to eastern Gulf, presently).
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#6 Postby Colin » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:50 pm

Good info Supercane and wxman57. ;) Very interesting that La Nina was predicted to become a factor this season, and how things can change so dramatically that now we are looking at a non-La Nina season! :o
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#7 Postby grentz7721 » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:52 pm

Looks like no chances for an active hurricane season as forecasted, So
Myrtle Beach may not see hurricanes this season.
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#8 Postby Colin » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:54 pm

What are you talking about, George? Have you not read the posts above? Active hurricane seasons have occured in neutral seasons... ;)
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#9 Postby grentz7721 » Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:58 pm

Since No La Nina is coming, They might be a less number of hurricanes
than the average number of hurricanes.
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#10 Postby OtherHD » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:04 pm

lol George...I'm sure the people in south Florida said the exact same thing in June 1992 when they heard about the strong El Nino.
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#11 Postby Anonymous » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:08 pm

No no no...I never said La Nina is not coming for sure. In fact, don't be surprised if it DOES. I was just pointing out that the chances have decreased, and that we'd need to see cooling soon (which is certainly possible given the MJO). Keep in mind that a lot of the other factors, such as sea level pressure anomalies and the Atlantic thermahaline circulation, should be in enhancing modes this season. So even if we did see neutral ENSO conditions, the season would still be moderately active.

Also, a season's total tropical cyclone activity has absolutely nothing to do with landfall probabilities. You need to look at the ENSO, NAO, and QBO to get an idea as to what areas are most likely to get hit.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#12 Postby Colin » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:15 pm

I understand that, Supercane... I'm just pointing out that it most likely WON'T develop... ;)
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#13 Postby Anonymous » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:20 pm

Yeah I know Colin, I was mostly talking to George. :wink:
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#14 Postby Stormsfury » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:26 pm

weathergeorge7721 wrote:Since No La Nina is coming, They might be a less number of hurricanes
than the average number of hurricanes.


Even if we have a neutral ENSO season, indications are strongly supporting an active season, nonetheless ... Last year, even with a weak to moderate El Niño season, other factors were in places, particularly in September, to develop 12 storms last year, and 8 in September ...

This year, the Cape Verde (CV) region is already active with strong tropical waves coming off of Africa, signs that the Azores High is not as strong as last year. This are the storms the East Coast, in particular need to worry about the most ... Hugo was a Cape Verde storm, and in there's an analog I can use ... the setup is almost eerily similar in regards to longwave pattern ...
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#15 Postby ColdFront77 » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:37 pm

...and remember Hurricane Hugo was initially expected to move up the east coast to Long Island and New England; the National Hurricane Center's officially forecast models indicated it to do so. But a forecasting tool (the theta-e ridge) indicated the system would make a South Carolina landfall.
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#16 Postby OtherHD » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:55 pm

JetMaxx wrote:Whoa George....slow down and chill out my friend. If you have a problem with OtherHD...sending him a p.m. or contacting a moderator for assistance is far more appropriate.

Thanks,
Perry


Oh geez Perry...now you have me wondering...what did he say? PM me pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!!! lol
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JetMaxx

#17 Postby JetMaxx » Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:08 pm

OtherHD...he didn't curse; but was angry (posted his response in ALL CAPS).

I just didn't want to see it escalate until someone got themselves banned. I've been banned from a weather forum, and it was the most humiliating time of my life. I don't want to see it happen to anyone else.

I didn't have his post deleted...apparently a moderator did. I attempted to delete my post to him, but was unfortunately unable to.

In all honesty I don't remember what weathergeorge said...but typing in all caps is a no-no here. I was just passing on some good advice I learned the hard way from my own past.

Sincerely,
Perry
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#18 Postby Steve » Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:10 pm

I think the chances are still better than 50/50 that we will remain in weak La Nina conditions in 1 and 2. The SOI is still slightly negative keeping ever-so-slightly El Nino conditions over on the western side of the south Pacific. As the Independent Team has been saying, the Pacific has been pretty much pulsing up and down with the temps. But I'm surprised the sub-surface has warmed as much as it has. I don't know anything about Pacific currents, but the warmer subsurface has got to be coming from pulses in the west or from the south.

http://www.fnoc.navy.mil/products/OTIS/ ... nomaly.gif

If anything, the tongue off of Peru has warmed over the last week or so. It's going to be interesting to see how it breaks over the next 2 months. If conditions tend toward neutral or just slightly La Nina, almost everyone oversold his and her forecasts (me included).

Another debatable key is the QBO. Some webhounds have been saying the QBO would be westerly this year while others are going with Easterly. Let's see how that breaks as well.

Steve
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Other Thoughts...

#19 Postby wxman57 » Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:53 pm

The projected weaker Bermuda High this season means that the trade winds will not be honking (technical professional met term :wink: ) at 25 kts this year. The decreased trades should give the more active lower-latitude waves a better chance of development. As always, early season Cape Verde storms would favor a more westerly Track (western Gulf), while later season storms (like Hugo) tend to recurve sooner (FL or Carolinas).

One thing I noticed about the QBO last year was that every time I checked it, it was from the east. I think it could have been an unfavorable QBO phase that had more of an effect on the storm intensities (more sheer) than the pittifully-weak El Nino of 2002.

Finally, a neutral to weak La Nina will be a non-factor. Won't help, won't hurt. But less wind shear and increasing mean Atlantic SSTs indicate a more active than normal season.
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#20 Postby Anonymous » Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:33 pm

The QBO has shifted to an easterly phase over the past few months. This makes perfect sense since we had an easterly QBO in 2001, when we saw several systems out in the Atlantic fall apart due to easterly shear.

NOAA...

"A secondary climate factor, anomalously easterly winds in the lower stratosphere, is expected to provide a slightly suppressing influence on overall Atlantic hurricane activity this season."

Gray

"Finally, years that tended to be in the east phase of the QBO were selected."

Image
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