I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

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crm6360

Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#21 Postby crm6360 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:14 pm

Correct me if my memory is incorrect... but Camille is seemingly the only major hurricane that did not weaken approaching the northern Gulf Coast. I'm talking about established majors, not tropical systems in the formative stages.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#22 Postby AL Chili Pepper » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:23 pm

crm6360 wrote:Correct me if my memory is incorrect... but Camille is seemingly the only major hurricane that did not weaken approaching the northern Gulf Coast. I'm talking about established majors, not tropical systems in the formative stages.


Eloise, Elena, Frederic, Betsy, Andrew....
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Derek Ortt

#23 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:39 pm

Andrew rapidly weakened, Frederic did weaken slightly, Elena weakened quite a bit, not sure about Betsy.

Eloise was an intensifying cat 3. The limit seems to be cat 3 for the NGC, so Eloise would fit into the pattern
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#24 Postby EDR1222 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:12 pm

I could be wrong, but I thought Elena sat off the Florida west coast as a cat 2, then as it began to move west-northwest toward Mississippi, it strengthened to a fairly strong cat 3 prior to final landfall ?
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#25 Postby crm6360 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:13 pm

This begs the question, what were the GOM and southern US synoptics during Camille's approach that allowed it to maintain or intensify upon landfall?
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#26 Postby Pearl River » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:02 pm

From Hurricane History on the NHC site:

A minimum pressure of 26.84 inches was reported in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, which makes Camille the second most intense hurricane of record to hit the United States. The actual maximum sustained winds will never be known, as the hurricane destroyed all the wind-recording instruments in the landfall area. The estimates at the coast are near 200 mph. Columbia, Mississippi, located 75 miles inland, reported 120 mph sustained winds. A storm tide of 24.6 ft occurred at Pass Christian, Mississippi.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#27 Postby frederic79 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:04 pm

I remember both a Frederic and Elena personally. If any weakening occurred prior to landfall, the NHC failed to mention it in their archives...

As Frederic approached Mobile, it had a pressure of 943 millibars while still 200 miles offshore.
Upon landfall, Dauphin Island Sea Lab recorded a 943 mb pressure reading. Highest wind gusts, recorded also at Dauphin Island, were 145 mph officially.

As Elena approached Mississippi from the east, the afternoon before it made landfall recon found a central pressure of 951 mb, referred to in achives as the lowest pressure it had. Upon landfall, ground based stations measured pressures of 953 and 959 millibars, very similar to the day before.

Based on pressure alone, I don't see any reason to suggest weakening before landfall. And to the best of my knowlege, Frederic and Elena were Cat. 3 at landfall and never attained a higher designation prior.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#28 Postby MGC » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:48 pm

HRD recently reanalysis of Betsy had 115KTS at landfall. I think it is naive and dangerous to think that all NGOM hurricanes will rapidly weaken. Yes, this has happened recently but is not the case. Betsy put nearly a 20 foot surge in SE La.......MGC
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Scorpion

#29 Postby Scorpion » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:48 pm

I think Camille was around 140-145 kts at landfall due to the extremely low pressure. I find it astonishing that it was able to keep its extreme intensity up to landfall especially on the northern Gulf Coast.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#30 Postby Berwick Bay » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:49 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Andrew rapidly weakened, Frederic did weaken slightly, Elena weakened quite a bit, not sure about Betsy.

Eloise was an intensifying cat 3. The limit seems to be cat 3 for the NGC, so Eloise would fit into the pattern


I doubt that. Limit means no storm of above Cat 3 intensity. Its true that in recent years we have observed weakening with eyewalls expanding and even losing part of their integrity as they approach the N Gulf Coast. We don't yet have enough info to determine how often this occurs (has it always occured). And we definitely cannot yet make a statement saying that there is an absolute limit in strength (cat 3) for any storm striking the N Gulf Coast. That statement is just too broad.
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#31 Postby AL Chili Pepper » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:05 pm

Andrew weakened quite a bit over FL, but the archives have it restrenghthening all the way to LA landfall....back up to 145 mph.
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at19922.asp

Also, Eleana seemed to hold it's own with little if any weakening while paralleling the coast.

Frederic's pressure rose slightly before falling again just before landfall.
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Derek Ortt

#32 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:24 pm

Andrew struck Louisiana with 115 mph winds, not 145, most of the weakening was in the final 3 hours.

Elena peaked at 110KT but struck at 100KT. There was slight weakening of that storm. Frederic retained upper cat 3 of 115KT. Betsy was about 135, but weakened to 115 before landfall

However, these storms all prove a very important point: cat 3 hurricanes bring about total destruction where they strike. Taking a storm lightly because it is a cat 3 and not a 4 or a 5 is a very big mistake
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#33 Postby Frank P » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:34 pm

MGC wrote:HRD recently reanalysis of Betsy had 115KTS at landfall. I think it is naive and dangerous to think that all NGOM hurricanes will rapidly weaken. Yes, this has happened recently but is not the case. Betsy put nearly a 20 foot surge in SE La.......MGC



Gee, only a twenty foot surge.... almost would be welcomed in lieu of what Katrina brought in to the MS coast... actually a twenty foot surge wouldn't cause that much damage because there is so little developed on the MS coast now, the condos would do fine in a 20 foot surge, and most of the houses that have been built on the beach, with a few exceptions, are higher than 20 feet, mine is 28 feet...... the casinos, especially the Beau Rivage and Hard Rock would be pummeled Hard since they are still basically at the same pre Katrina elevations.....hwy 90 would be in really bad shape from a twenty foot surge as its still in bad shape from Katrina.. all the new light poles would be down... not much else to destroy, oh a couple of Waffle houses would be wiped out as they build back on their original slab.. ......

Not sure if I completely agree with ya Derek, I was in my house during Elena and yes the wind blew as hard as I ever seen being on the beach but there was minimal damage on the coast from wind, my house lost about 15 shingles and that was it..... the surge max was 8 feet... I know because it takes a 9 foot surge to put water at the base of the sea wall in front of my house... that has happened only three times in my lifetime... Camille... 21 foot surge, TS Isadore 9 foot surge, and Katrina... 26 feet... my biggest fear, and what I thought was my worse case scenario on the beach would be if one of the great Oaks came crashing down on my house.. never figured a 26 foot surge... one of the reasons I moved my house back 20 feet was to get it away from the Oaks... not sure if I got it far enough away...

I might need to add the fact that perhaps there has been some luck involved too... as I don't think my house has ever been struck by the streaks that Derek alluded to in an earlier post... as I understand it within the eye wall are super concentrated areas of high velocity winds streaks that vary in width... being in the path of one of these streaks would NOT be a good thing
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Re:

#34 Postby Ptarmigan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:49 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:Andrew struck Louisiana with 115 mph winds, not 145, most of the weakening was in the final 3 hours.

Elena peaked at 110KT but struck at 100KT. There was slight weakening of that storm. Frederic retained upper cat 3 of 115KT. Betsy was about 135, but weakened to 115 before landfall

However, these storms all prove a very important point: cat 3 hurricanes bring about total destruction where they strike. Taking a storm lightly because it is a cat 3 and not a 4 or a 5 is a very big mistake


115 KT puts it at Category 4, not 3.
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Re: Re:

#35 Postby Cyclone1 » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:51 pm

Ptarmigan wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:Andrew struck Louisiana with 115 mph winds, not 145, most of the weakening was in the final 3 hours.

Elena peaked at 110KT but struck at 100KT. There was slight weakening of that storm. Frederic retained upper cat 3 of 115KT. Betsy was about 135, but weakened to 115 before landfall

However, these storms all prove a very important point: cat 3 hurricanes bring about total destruction where they strike. Taking a storm lightly because it is a cat 3 and not a 4 or a 5 is a very big mistake


115 KT puts it at Category 4, not 3.


In MPH, yes. But in kts, it is a category three. It is one of the NHC's greatest paradoxes.
Or maybe I got that backwards...
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#36 Postby HurricaneRobert » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:09 pm

Yeah it's the other way around.
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#37 Postby Javlin » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:11 pm

quote FrankP:Not sure if I completely agree with ya Derek, I was in my house during Elena and yes the wind blew as hard as I ever seen being on the beach but there was minimal damage on the coast from wind, my house lost about 15 shingles and that was it..... the surge max was 8 feet... I know because it takes a 9 foot surge to put water at the base of the sea wall in front of my house... that has happened only three times in my lifetime... Camille... 21 foot surge, TS Isadore 9 foot surge, and Katrina... 26 feet... my biggest fear, and what I thought was my worse case scenario on the beach would be if one of the great Oaks came crashing down on my house.. never figured a 26 foot surge... one of the reasons I moved my house back 20 feet was to get it away from the Oaks... not sure if I got it far enough away...



Not to stray to far off topic but when you mentioned that it brought up a story told to me by Craig up there by Winn Dixie,maybe mine and yours watering hole :cheesy: .Him and his brother were caught in the attic during Katrina and they started to here and feel this noise"twanggg"like a steel cable snapping.They looked at each other like WTF,were able to see outside some but could not figure it out.Then it came too them it was the Oak,huge Oak maybe 8' in diameter had been partially submerged for a while and the sound was the roots snapping.Craig said that each time you heard the "Twangg" the Oak would lean a little more. The Oak finally gave up and the main root gave way and he said it almost literally came flying out of the water and hit the house.Does that make you feel any better Frank :lol: Kevin
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#38 Postby Ixolib » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:14 pm

Frank P wrote:...TS Isadore 9 foot surge...

Not intending to hijack this thread, but now that you mention Isadore, you are right. That was one surprise of a storm!! Here's just a few pics of Isadore, then back to the topic at hand!! All were taken early the next morning as Isadore was winding down...

Looking east on Hwy 90 from the Small Craft Harbor
Image

Just down the road from our home in Biloxi
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Sorta In between Frank P's house and my house on the beach in Biloxi!!
Image
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Re: I really don't think Camille was any where near 190 mph

#39 Postby Ptarmigan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:24 pm

Scary thing is, Isidore was forecasted to hit the New Orleans area as a Category 4 or even 5 hurricane. Thankfully, it stayed over the Yucatan and weakened a great deal. Now, if Isidore did hit New Orleans, that would be no good. :eek:
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Re: Re:

#40 Postby Ptarmigan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:26 pm

Cyclone1 wrote:
In MPH, yes. But in kts, it is a category three. It is one of the NHC's greatest paradoxes.
Or maybe I got that backwards...


110 KT * 1.15 = 126 mph (Cat. 3)
115 KT * 1.15 = 132 mph (Cat. 4)
120 KT * 1.15 = 138 mph (Cat. 4)

Cat. 1 74-95
Cat. 2 96-110
Cat. 3 111-130
Cat. 4 131-155
Cat. 5 156+
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