Model Runs & Discussions of GOM-Bahamas

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jhamps10

Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#881 Postby jhamps10 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:07 pm

miamicanes177 wrote:
wxman57 wrote:Interesting discussions, AFM/Derek. I agree, AFM, that the upper low could be the spark that gets some kind of low going, possibly near Florida on one side or the other. But the question I have is how the global models would handle the upper-level features (i.e., the low) given that they don't really forecast tropical systems well. 5-day forecasts are often pretty bad as far as upper wind predictions, particularly if the model "thinks" the low its developing isn't tropical in nature. So maybe the shear you're seeing isn't really going to be there by Friday?

This system really does have me concerned. With a ridge building to the north and a slow west movement beneath it, it would seem like quite a favorable environment for TC development/intensification. The "fly in the ointment" is that upper low. What if the models are wrong with its strength and/or location (or even its existence) by Friday? My gut is telling me that this system could be a real problem. Or maybe it's all the Corn Chex I just ate.
I don't want this to get lost on the earlier page between the bickering back and forth. No doubt this could be a player in the GOM. We've only had 3 hurricanes so far so it's almost like we're due anytime now for another one. Me an wxman57 must have ate the same thing because my gut is telling me to watch out for development too.



Miamicanes, count me in eating that same thing too, since my gut is really telling me that we really need to watch out for a cane,

also what happened to never trusting the NAM? Not complaining that we are getting so detailed into tonights run as the more detailed we get, the more that we learn about sytems and the models in general, but I thought that it was the worst model of them all.
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#882 Postby cycloneye » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 pm

Waiting for the 00z GFS to see how it shows the upper pattern at 200mb.
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chadtm80

Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#883 Postby chadtm80 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 pm

Image

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Nor'easter-like conditions that developed overnight dropped up to 7 inches of rain across a portion of Duval County in less than 12 hours Monday, causing street flooding in downtown Jacksonville, Riverside, San Marco, and on Jacksonville's beaches and at Ponte Vedra.


http://www.news4jax.com/weather/14131085/detail.html
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#884 Postby Sanibel » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 pm

We'll see. To me, the entire west basin looks too hostile and sheared to produce anything.
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#885 Postby Stormcenter » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:10 pm

Well if NAM is right then our friend Mr. Shear will save the day again.
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jhamps10

#886 Postby jhamps10 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:10 pm

TWO, didn't see it posted:

TROPICAL WEATHER OUTLOOK
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
1030 PM EDT MON SEP 17 2007

FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO...

A LARGE AREA OF DISORGANIZED CLOUDINESS AND THUNDERSTORMS EXTENDS
FROM THE EAST COAST OF FLORIDA EASTWARD A FEW HUNDRED MILES OVER
THE WESTERN ATLANTIC AND BAHAMAS. THIS ACTIVITY IS ASSOCIATED WITH
A TROPICAL WAVE AND AN UPPER-LEVEL TROUGH. CONDITIONS ARE
CURRENTLY UNFAVORABLE FOR DEVELOPMENT IN THIS AREA...BUT SLOW
DEVELOPMENT IS POSSIBLE IN A COUPLE OF DAYS AS THE SYSTEM MOVES
WESTWARD OVER FLORIDA AND INTO THE EASTERN GULF OF MEXICO.
LOCALLY
HEAVY RAINFALL IS POSSIBLE OVER PORTIONS OF THE FLORIDA PENINSULA
AND THE BAHAMAS DURING THE NEXT DAY OR TWO.
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Re: Re:

#887 Postby Extremeweatherguy » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:13 pm

Air Force Met wrote:
Extremeweatherguy wrote:Here we go again... AFM and stratosphere747 gang up on Extremeweatherguy.. :roll: It is kind of funny actually. I mean it wasn't even like I singled AFM out anywhere in my post. All I basically said was that we should never let our gaurd down because Humberto showed us that anything can happen in the tropics. There was no attacking, there was no "calling out" of a particular met, there was really no harm in my post. Sure, I admit that I missed AFM's post on the other page saying that shear could lighten once in the central GOM and that he was talking only about the short term, but does that give him the right to respond in a rude manner toward me? I don't really think so (IMO).

BTW: When I said "quite a few mets" I wasn't referring just to S2K mets. I was talking about most of the TV mets and a few other internet/forum mets that were giving the swirl of clouds (that later became Humberto) basically little to no chance of development up to even 12 hours before it took off. It was not a personal attack of AFM or Derek Ortt in particular.


EWG...nobody is ganging up on you...and I have to admit...you have gotten a lot better. But really...are we going to let our guard down? Of course anything can happen in the tropics. The last words I spoke to my boss at work at 3:30 on Wed was that I anticipated a landfalling pressure of 987-990mb...and that was in the Cat1 range...especially given the tight pressure gradient. He thought I was crazy. Of course anything can happen.

I'm sorry if I took it like I did...but even you have to admit in the past you have been a noble defender of all systems...both tropical and winter...which may have any impact on the SE Texas area. You live in a state of red alert. :lol: And that was my point. I wasn't picking in the storm...and I agree with WXMAN's post...I actually think it has a good chance in the central/western GOM "IF" something gets going per the models. The atmosphere looks good there. It looks terrible off of Florida...which is what we were talking about.


Ok, AFM, fair enough. I can kind of understand where you are coming from because in the past I definitely was in a bit more of a "Red Alert" mode for all things SE Texas (especially that first winter here on S2K. :lol: ). However, over the last 6-8 months I have really tried to tone that down some and aquire more knowledge about weather in general (especially when it comes to winter and the tropics), and you have definitely helped me out tremendously since I have joined. Hopefully my increasing meteorological knowledge base and less "excitment" posts will continue and in the future I will become an even better poster here on S2K.

As for the current system..I just read back over the last few pages and I do actually agree with you, derek and wxman57's predictions. I guess I was just a little confused at first when you were talking about the short term near FL and not the long term in the GOM. I definitely do not think this will pull a Humberto east of FL given the current atmospheric conditions. The real "action" looks to possibly take place a few days down the road. Should be interesting to watch...
Last edited by Extremeweatherguy on Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#888 Postby Air Force Met » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:13 pm

jhamps10 wrote: also what happened to never trusting the NAM? Not complaining that we are getting so detailed into tonights run as the more detailed we get, the more that we learn about sytems and the models in general, but I thought that it was the worst model of them all.


It's not the worst model out there...but it is a very bad tropical model. What you have to be leery of with the NAM is using it to forecast the movement of tropical systems: i.e. a hurricane is in the NW Car. and the NAM takes it to SE Tex. Disregard the NAM in that instance over other models which take it into MS/AL.

What we are using the NAM for tonight is for the forecasting of the upper air patterns...upper lows...etc...and the NAM isn't bad in these cases. A lot of the NWS forecasts you read...or the forecasts you see on the news for a low of 70 and a high of 90 with a 50% chance of tstms is based on NAM guidance. A lot of times it is either the NAM of the GFS (or a blend) than is used to produce the forecast...just not tropical STEERING forecasts.

Did that help?
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#889 Postby Stratosphere747 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:16 pm

That's a good point about the NAM, AFM...

I think many that read the AFD's always see either the NAM or GFS being used and wonder why it always takes a beating when it comes to the tropics.
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Re: Re:

#890 Postby Air Force Met » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:16 pm

Extremeweatherguy wrote: Ok, AFM, fair enough. I can kind of understand where you are coming from because in the past I definitely was in a bit more of a "Red Alert" mode for all things SE Texas (especially that first winter here on S2K. :lol: ). However, over the last 6-8 months I have really tried to tone that down some and aquire more knowledge about weather in general (especially when it comes to winter and the tropics), and you have definitely helped me out tremendously since I have joined. Hopefully my increasing meteorological knowledge base and less "excitment" posts will continue and in the future I will become an even better poster here on S2K.


That comes with experience. I busted a lot of forecasts when I was younger due to..."enthusiasm." :lol:
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#891 Postby hurricanetrack » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:19 pm

Well, if you can access the ECMWF 12Z for today and check out the 200mb maps, you'll see something very interesting. It shows a nice upper high right over the supposed storm/hurricane/whatever with VERY LITTLE shear at all- in fact it's in the lower part of the scale.

So.......we have the possibility at least that one major global model (maybe more but I am tired of looking) shows very favorable conditions aloft WITHIN ABOUT A WEEK.

Moral of the story- there COULD be a strengthening tropical cyclone heading for Texas in about a week. I think the majority of the models at least indicate that is a growing possibility but certainly not something to hang our hats on just yet.
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jhamps10

Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#892 Postby jhamps10 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:19 pm

Air Force Met wrote:
jhamps10 wrote: also what happened to never trusting the NAM? Not complaining that we are getting so detailed into tonights run as the more detailed we get, the more that we learn about sytems and the models in general, but I thought that it was the worst model of them all.


It's not the worst model out there...but it is a very bad tropical model. What you have to be leery of with the NAM is using it to forecast the movement of tropical systems: i.e. a hurricane is in the NW Car. and the NAM takes it to SE Tex. Disregard the NAM in that instance over other models which take it into MS/AL.

What we are using the NAM for tonight is for the forecasting of the upper air patterns...upper lows...etc...and the NAM isn't bad in these cases. A lot of the NWS forecasts you read...or the forecasts you see on the news for a low of 70 and a high of 90 with a 50% chance of tstms is based on NAM guidance. A lot of times it is either the NAM of the GFS (or a blend) than is used to produce the forecast...just not tropical STEERING forecasts.

Did that help?


yes it did AFM, although I was only meaning with the tropics, actually in winter storms the NAM is usually the peferred model by most mets I've seen.
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#893 Postby gatorcane » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:21 pm

personally I don't give the models much faith yet as just yesterday they were forecasting something from the SW Caribbean. They all jumped ship today.

But still enjoying the good debate about this phantom storm. To hear WxMan say he thinks trouble is brewing for the GOM and he will be working overtime this weekend, I do this :eek:
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#894 Postby hurricanetrack » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:23 pm

Contrast the ECMWF with the good ole GFS at the same time and you see plenty of SSE winds hauling the mail at 200mb.

Which one is the more correct will obviously shape the future of this much bally-hooed system to be.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... 0_168l.gif
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#895 Postby CrazyC83 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:23 pm

I don't see much coming from this blob. This ranks #3 in potential development right now IMO (behind ex-Ingrid and the Azores low).
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#896 Postby Air Force Met » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:24 pm

jhamps10 wrote: yes it did AFM, although I was only meaning with the tropics, actually in winter storms the NAM is usually the peferred model by most mets I've seen.


Gotcha...and you've answered your question. The dynamics of the model that make it good for winter forecasting of baroclinic systems make it bad for barotropic warm cores.

My GTO can go real fast...but I can't really pull a trailer with all those horses... :lol:

You gotta do what your made for...
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#897 Postby bwhorton2007 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:26 pm

Gator i agree with you and wxman57,i also think our Bahamas disturbance is part of the witches brew.
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jhamps10

Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#898 Postby jhamps10 » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:26 pm

Air Force Met wrote:
jhamps10 wrote: yes it did AFM, although I was only meaning with the tropics, actually in winter storms the NAM is usually the peferred model by most mets I've seen.


Gotcha...and you've answered your question. The dynamics of the model that make it good for winter forecasting of baroclinic systems make it bad for barotropic warm cores.

My GTO can go real fast...but I can't really pull a trailer with all those horses... :lol:

You gotta do what your made for...


no it can't AFM, but it can sure get you a high bill with the police dept with all those speeding tickets :lol: :lol:

also gatorcane, I'm with you when wxman57 says what he said, it REALLY gets me concerned. he's a pro met that knows a lot about the GOM, and infact you ask a lot of people on the KHOU boards they take him VERY seriously, and I do mean VERY seriously.
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Re: Model runs & Discussion for GOM - Bahamas (Threads merged)

#899 Postby Air Force Met » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:29 pm

jhamps10 wrote:
Air Force Met wrote:no it can't AFM, but it can sure get you a high bill with the police dept with all those speeding tickets :lol: :lol:




I have YET to be ticketed (CAUGHT). :lol:
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#900 Postby skysummit » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:32 pm

00z GFS began rolling out if anyone wants to post it! :)
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