Late Oct/Early Nov development?

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cycloneye
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Late Oct/Early Nov development?

#1 Postby cycloneye » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:19 pm

12z GFS

:uarrow: :uarrow:

I know is far in time as this is for the last days of october between the 24th and 29th,but GFS has been showing this scenario,of course with different areas of formation but mainly moving ENE thru the Caribbean.Lets see in the next runs from GFS and the others to see if a trend showing this is established or it will be another false alarm. :) Mark,Brent and other members who are already thinking about 2008,I think this will have a good chance to do something,but of course time will tell.

For those members who donrt remember or are new,here is Hurricane Lenny in 1999 which tracked from west to east in mid to late November with maximun intensity as a cat 4 (145 mph).

Image
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#2 Postby Cyclone1 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:48 pm

Wow, another Lenny-like storm?

Can't wait to see if this pans out...
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#3 Postby Vortex » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:51 pm

Cyclone,

I remeber tracking lenny like it was yesterday. Also, the gfs has been indicating this on and off for several days now...Well see..
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Re:

#4 Postby Cyclone1 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:56 pm

Vortex wrote:Cyclone,

I remeber tracking lenny like it was yesterday. Also, the gfs has been indicating this on and off for several days now...Well see..


Which Cyclone? :P

Yeah, I doubt it'll come true, but it would be kinda sweet.
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#5 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:13 pm

For a storm to nearly reach Category 5 in mid-November is amazing...
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#6 Postby Cyclenall » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:29 pm

The reason must be because the wind flow changed as the winter pattern was setting into the tropics. I remember reading some old NHC advisories and they didn't expect this to become what it did at all.

Another Lenny would be very interesting to track.
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Re: Another Lennytype track in Caribbean for late October?

#7 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:29 pm

It won't happen if you're looking beyond ~140 hours. Look for short-term trends. It will be a coincidence (not an actual successful trend) if the operational GFS nails this long-term system. I have no clue as to why Luis thinks this has a "good chance" in the long range guidance of one model. Additionally, it is a single run. I suspect nothing will take place even if the system (probably non-tropical) is consistently shown in several runs. I will only take the models seriously when a system is shown within the short term and the UA (upper-air) pattern supports tropical cyclogenesis.

Historical tidbit: a storm attained Category 5 status (~140 kts/160 mph) in November 1932. A ship reported a ctrl pressure near ~915 mb off Jamaica.

I'm not insulting Luis, but I would be interested to hear more information as to why he believes there is a "good chance" for verification.
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Re: Another Lennytype track in Caribbean for late October?

#8 Postby Cyclone1 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:34 pm

MiamiensisWx wrote:Historical tidbit: a storm attained Category 5 status (~140 kts/160 mph) in November 1932. A ship reported a ctrl pressure near ~915 mb off Jamaica.



Got a link?
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#9 Postby hurricanetrack » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:35 pm

Plus, it's 2007- that should be a big clue right there. Seriously, everything since Felix has been weak, small, sheared, non-tropical, sub-tropical, never made it past Invest or TD and/pr was a small, quick fuse, last-minute-before-landfall hurricane. I pose the question once again: why would the pattern support anything except what we have seen since Felix? Especially towards Halloween...Lenny was at the tail end of an impressive hurricane season that kept on producing impressive hurricanes- not a lot of them- but they were there (Dennis and Floyd then Irene) So Lenny was not that much of a surprise- La Nina was evident that year too. This season, only Dean and Felix were impressive and those two hurricanes made up the real meat of the hurricane season. It is my strong opinion that nothing else will develop of any significance between now and November 30- not near land anyway. If it does, I will be one surprised individual.
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MiamiensisWx

Re: Another Lennytype track in Caribbean for late October?

#10 Postby MiamiensisWx » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:37 pm

Cyclone1 wrote:Got a link?

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Landsea/NHR-Cuba.pdf

"cThe 1932 hurricane was also a Category 5 hurricane. Lowest pressure on a ship south of Cuba was 914.6 mb. It was remarkable for the huge storm surge
of 6.5 m at Santa Cruz del Sur, Camaguey. The town was swept away. There were 2,870 deaths out of a population of 4,800 in that coastal town. Estimated
winds at landfall were 140 kt, gusting up to 180 kt."


Track:

http://weather.unisys.com/hurricane/atlantic/1932/10/track.gif
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#11 Postby Cyclone1 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:41 pm

That must be unofficial. The official records show NO category five past October 31, which was Hattie. If this report is true, there have been 31 cat fives, not 30.

Could be upgraded in HURDAT Reanalysis, if they EVER get there. Until then, it's unofficial.
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Re: Another Lennytype track in Caribbean for late October?

#12 Postby cycloneye » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:42 pm

MiamiensisWx wrote:It won't happen if you're looking beyond ~140 hours. Look for short-term trends. It will be a coincidence (not an actual successful trend) if the operational GFS nails this long-term system. I have no clue as to why Luis thinks this has a "good chance" in the long range guidance of one model. Additionally, it is a single run. I suspect nothing will take place even if the system (probably non-tropical) is consistently shown in several runs. I will only take the models seriously when a system is shown within the short term and the UA (upper-air) pattern supports tropical cyclogenesis.

Historical tidbit: a storm attained Category 5 status (~140 kts/160 mph) in November 1932. A ship reported a ctrl pressure near ~915 mb off Jamaica.

I'm not insulting Luis, but I would be interested to hear more information as to why he believes there is a "good chance" for verification.


First,GFS has been showing this for 3 days now,however with different areas of the low to form as is normal for long range runs to jump around but has the idea of something.Being three days in a row showing this,I thought it was time to make a thread about it.

I agree that we need more models to latch to this and that will occur once the timeframe gets to 144 hours.By then we will see if other global models join GFS or not.

About having a " good chance of verifying" is my opinion only and nothing official.

The best thing is that time will tell the reallity of this comming to fructition or not.
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Re:

#13 Postby cycloneye » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:55 pm

hurricanetrack wrote:Plus, it's 2007- that should be a big clue right there. Seriously, everything since Felix has been weak, small, sheared, non-tropical, sub-tropical, never made it past Invest or TD and/pr was a small, quick fuse, last-minute-before-landfall hurricane. I pose the question once again: why would the pattern support anything except what we have seen since Felix? Especially towards Halloween...Lenny was at the tail end of an impressive hurricane season that kept on producing impressive hurricanes- not a lot of them- but they were there (Dennis and Floyd then Irene) So Lenny was not that much of a surprise- La Nina was evident that year too. This season, only Dean and Felix were impressive and those two hurricanes made up the real meat of the hurricane season. It is my strong opinion that nothing else will develop of any significance between now and November 30- not near land anyway. If it does, I will be one surprised individual.


I agree and understand the skeptical views from you and others about this being 2007 the way it has behaved.But the best friend is time,and we will see as time goes by if this is a non starter,or is going to break the quietness of the last few weeks.
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#14 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:13 pm

no, the cat 5 classification IS in the reanalysis
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Re:

#15 Postby Cyclone1 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:51 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:no, the cat 5 classification IS in the reanalysis

So, it's a category 5 officially? The 1932 Nov. storm?
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#16 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:20 pm

I believe so or will be when the BT committee meets. The reanalysis is through those years already
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Re:

#17 Postby Cyclenall » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:21 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:no, the cat 5 classification IS in the reanalysis

So then there really was a November category 5 hurricane afterall. That's pretty neat since I didn't know that until now. It's time for some sites to update the database.
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Re: Re:

#18 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:41 pm

Cyclenall wrote:
Derek Ortt wrote:no, the cat 5 classification IS in the reanalysis

So then there really was a November category 5 hurricane afterall. That's pretty neat since I didn't know that until now. It's time for some sites to update the database.


I'm working on the Wikipedia article for that storm (there is none, and that made me decide to work on it) - I'm trying to decide how to treat it.
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#19 Postby Chacor » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:44 pm

The official last HURDAT update doesn't have the 1932 storm as a category 5.

But, enough of a tangent.
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Re:

#20 Postby RattleMan » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:43 am

Cyclenall wrote:The reason must be because the wind flow changed as the winter pattern was setting into the tropics. I remember reading some old NHC advisories and they didn't expect this to become what it did at all.

Another Lenny would be very interesting to track.


"OBVIOUSLY...THE RAPID INTENSIFICATION OF THIS TROPICAL CYCLONE WAS
NOT ANTICIPATED. THIS AGAIN UNDERSCORES OUR LIMITED ABILITY TO
PREDICT INTENSITY CHANGE."

"AN UPPER LEVEL RIDGE OR ANTICYCLONE REMAINS OVER LENNY...SO FURTHER
INTENSIFICATION APPEARS LIKELY. THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS HOW LONG
WILL THE CURRENT RAPID STRENGTHENING CONTINUE? THE INTENSITY
FORECAST CALLS FOR FURTHER STRENGTHENING FOR 24 HOURS FOLLOWED BY A
LEVELING OUT. ALTHOUGH MAJOR NOVEMBER HURRICANES ARE NOT UNHEARD
OF...THEY ARE UNCOMMON ENOUGH THAT I WILL NOT FORECAST LENNY TO
BECOME ONE JUST YET."

"HERE WE GO AGAIN! REPORTS FROM AN AIR FORCE RESERVE HURRICANE HUNTER
AIRCRAFT INDICATE LENNY IS STRENGTHENING WITH A MINIMUM CENTRAL
PRESSURE OF 971 MB AND MAXIMUM 850 MB WINDS OF 109 KT. THE PLANE
ALSO REPORTED A 45 NM WIDE EYE. ALTHOUGH NO EYE IS VISIBLE IN
SATELLITE IMAGERY...THE CLOUD TOPS NEAR THE CENTER ARE -80C TO -85C
AND SATELLITE INTENSITY ESTIMATES ARE AS HIGH AS 102 KT. THE INITIAL
INTENSITY IS SET TO 85 KT...AND THIS MAY BE A BIT CONSERVATIVE."

"THE SIGNIFICANT EVENT OF THE DAY IS THE UNEXPECTED INTENSIFICATION
OF LENNY...INDICATING THAT THERE IS LITTLE SKILL IN FORECASTING
RAPID INTENSITY CHANGES. THE CENTRAL PRESSURE EXTRAPOLATED FROM 700
MB HAS FALLEN TO 927 MB WHILE A DROP MEASURED 934 MB. THE
FLIGHT-LEVEL WINDS HAVE INCREASED TO 149 KNOTS. THE MEAN BOUNDARY
LAYER WINDS FROM DROPSONDES ARE 155 KNOTS AND PEAK WINDS REACHED 180
KNOTS AT THE 891-MB LEVEL A COUPLE OF HOURS AGO. BASED ON THAT
INFORMATION...INITIAL INTENSITY WAS ADJUSTED TO 130 KNOTS."

"...WEAKENING IS INDICATED AS LENNY MOVES TOWARD A LESS
FAVORABLE UPPER-LEVEL WIND ENVIRONMENT. IF THE THERMODYNAMICS ARE
PROPERLY ESTABLISHED...A PARAMETER I DO NOT KNOW TO FORECAST...THE
HURRICANE COULD OVERCOME THE SHEARING EFFECTS AND REMAIN STRONG A
LITTLE BIT LONGER."

"ALSO THE
FORECAST TRACK IS A LITTLE SLOWER TO ACCOUNT FOR THE UNCERTAINTY IN
LOCATION AND MOTION AND FOR THE PERSISTANT NORTH BIAS THAT ALL OF
THE GLOBAL MODELS HAVE DISPLAYED DURING THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS.
MAYBE NUMERICAL MODELS ARE NOT ABLE TO MOVE A SLOW MOVING TROPICAL
CYCLONE SOUTHWARD IN THE DEEP TROPICS??"
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