Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

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Cyclenall
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Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#1 Postby Cyclenall » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:10 pm

New derivation of equations governing the greenhouse effect reveals "runaway warming" impossible

Miklós Zágoni isn't just a physicist and environmental researcher. He is also a global warming activist and Hungary's most outspoken supporter of the Kyoto Protocol. Or was.
That was until he learned the details of a new theory of the greenhouse effect, one that not only gave far more accurate climate predictions here on Earth, but Mars too. The theory was developed by another Hungarian scientist, Ferenc Miskolczi, an atmospheric physicist with 30 years of experience and a former researcher with NASA's Langley Research Center.

After studying it, Zágoni stopped calling global warming a crisis, and has instead focused on presenting the new theory to other climatologists. The data fit extremely well. "I fell in love," he stated at the International Climate Change Conference this week.

"Runaway greenhouse theories contradict energy balance equations," Miskolczi states. Just as the theory of relativity sets an upper limit on velocity, his theory sets an upper limit on the greenhouse effect, a limit which prevents it from warming the Earth more than a certain amount.

How did modern researchers make such a mistake? They relied upon equations derived over 80 years ago, equations which left off one term from the final solution.

Miskolczi's story reads like a book. Looking at a series of differential equations for the greenhouse effect, he noticed the solution -- originally done in 1922 by Arthur Milne, but still used by climate researchers today -- ignored boundary conditions by assuming an "infinitely thick" atmosphere. Similar assumptions are common when solving differential equations; they simplify the calculations and often result in a result that still very closely matches reality. But not always.

So Miskolczi re-derived the solution, this time using the proper boundary conditions for an atmosphere that is not infinite. His result included a new term, which acts as a negative feedback to counter the positive forcing. At low levels, the new term means a small difference ... but as greenhouse gases rise, the negative feedback predominates, forcing values back down.

NASA refused to release the results. Miskolczi believes their motivation is simple. "Money", he tells DailyTech. Research that contradicts the view of an impending crisis jeopardizes funding, not only for his own atmosphere-monitoring project, but all climate-change research. Currently, funding for climate research tops $5 billion per year.

Miskolczi resigned in protest, stating in his resignation letter, "Unfortunately my working relationship with my NASA supervisors eroded to a level that I am not able to tolerate. My idea of the freedom of science cannot coexist with the recent NASA practice of handling new climate change related scientific results."

His theory was eventually published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal in his home country of Hungary.

The conclusions are supported by research published in the Journal of Geophysical Research last year from Steven Schwartz of Brookhaven National Labs, who gave statistical evidence that the Earth's response to carbon dioxide was grossly overstated. It also helps to explain why current global climate models continually predict more warming than actually measured.

The equations also answer thorny problems raised by current theory, which doesn't explain why "runaway" greenhouse warming hasn't happened in the Earth's past. The new theory predicts that greenhouse gas increases should result in small, but very rapid temperature spikes, followed by much longer, slower periods of cooling -- exactly what the paleoclimatic record demonstrates.

However, not everyone is convinced. Dr. Stephen Garner, with the NOAA's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory (GFDL), says such negative feedback effects are "not very plausible". Reto Ruedy of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies says greenhouse theory is "200 year old science" and doubts the possibility of dramatic changes to the basic theory.

Miskowlczi has used his theory to model not only Earth, but the Martian atmosphere as well, showing what he claims is an extremely good fit with observational results. For now, the data for Venus is too limited for similar analysis, but Miskolczi hopes it will one day be possible.


Link: http://www.dailytech.com/Researcher+Bas ... e10973.htm

What are some of the thoughts regarding this Hungarian scientist findings?
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#2 Postby gigabite » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:50 am

I have monkeyed with the greenhouse equations for some years and found that many of the constants in the equations are actually variables. The solar constant for example is never constant. It varies with the Solar Distance and real surface temperature of the sun. In the greenhouse gas equation the surface temperature of the sun is interpolated from earth by various means.

The soho satellite is at a place between the moon and the sun on the earth sun line. It has a thermometer on the front lens that temperature varies quite a lot.

http://mdisas.nascom.nasa.gov/temperatu ... opts01.gif
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#3 Postby x-y-no » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:05 am

Well ...

The first thing I have to point out is that nobody in the climate research community claims we could get a runaway greenhouse effect here on Earth. So that's rather a straw-man.

On the other hand, if he's trying to say that a runaway greenhouse effect is impossible in all cases, I suggest he take a look at Venus. That's not going to happen here on Earth (at least until far later in the sun's lifespan) but it's manifestly possible given Venus.

I located the paper online here:

http://met.hu/doc/idojaras/vol111001_01.pdf

I haven't had opportunity to read it yet.
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#4 Postby x-y-no » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:13 am

I did a Google Scholar search for F.M. Miskolczi and he has a fair number of recently published collaborations, so I'm not inclined to dismiss him out of hand.

I've glanced at the paper now - it presents an analytic solution for the plane bounded Milne problem - it's unlikely he made any error a layman like me would be able to spot. I think we need to wait a couple of months to see what reactions it gets in the journals.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#5 Postby MGC » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:51 pm

Miskolczi has one thing right...."money." Money is the common denominator in the GW debate......MGC
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#6 Postby gigabite » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:25 pm

MGC wrote:Miskolczi has one thing right...."money." Money is the common denominator in the GW debate......MGC


While the old equations are ready for service pack two. The metrics still show that the planet is warming up. There are some places where in the effects are not consistent with warming, and the proof of how and why the planet is warming is academic, but the money spent for this cause is inversely proportionate to the potential damage from the condition.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#7 Postby Sanibel » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:16 pm

However none of the powerful interests promoting the denial of Global Warming have money as their interest (of course).
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#8 Postby Javlin » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:43 pm

Sanibel wrote:However none of the powerful interests promoting the denial of Global Warming have money as their interest (of course).


Who would those interest be?the oil companies?come on,they are making more revenue than they have ever been able to obtain.

1)by not letting the Oil companies uncap or drill for new oil they make more per barrel in the refining process.Seems to me they may want to prolong this process.

2)That above feature in turn is elevating the price of everything in the market.

3)While I have no qualms about finding alternative power supplies this deal with corn bios is a waste of resources for all the people of the US in regards to our food and what we pay at the pump.Then to top it off this ethanol bio has a lower BTU than regular fuel resulting in less MPG .

4)First time in US History we have had to import wheat if I am not mistaken while we burn or other food supply yea that's smart!

5)If this new Bio fuel program was so profitable then why does the Goverment subsidize the program?If money could be made trust me good ole American Interest for profit would be involed at the front end.

Like I said lets be energy independant wether it be Nuclear or drill for more oil till we find another souce that can be produced cheaply in the long run.Lets get there in a timely manner not all at once and make our economy and it's people suffer.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#9 Postby wbug1 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:07 am

Personally, I've been a little curious as to why the NOAA monitoring sites don't keep good tabs on water vapour in the atmosphere, or maybe I missed it. I did find some data, but there isn't much of it. H20 is a better greenhouse gas (notice how warm it is during the night, on cloudy nights it's warmer, the effect is startling) than CO2. During the day, cloudiness cools because it blocks sunlight. Right, did I mention during the day it BLOCKS sunlight? What effect does the roughly 10^20 Joules annual input that burning coal/oil/natural gas/nuclear have on atmospheric dynamics?
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#10 Postby x-y-no » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:39 am

wbug1 wrote:Personally, I've been a little curious as to why the NOAA monitoring sites don't keep good tabs on water vapour in the atmosphere, or maybe I missed it. I did find some data, but there isn't much of it. H20 is a better greenhouse gas (notice how warm it is during the night, on cloudy nights it's warmer, the effect is startling) than CO2. During the day, cloudiness cools because it blocks sunlight. Right, did I mention during the day it BLOCKS sunlight? What effect does the roughly 10^20 Joules annual input that burning coal/oil/natural gas/nuclear have on atmospheric dynamics?


Because water vapor is a feedback, not a forcing. The average lifetime of a water molecule in the atmosphere is on the order of a week. For methane, it's a decade. For carbon dioxide, it's over a century. And when the atmosphere is warmed by those longer-term greenhouse gasses, there is an immediate response in increased evaporation leading to an increase in water vapor in the column.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#11 Postby wbug1 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:47 pm

Perhaps I should have been more precise in my statement. Water vapour, not condensed as cloud droplets traps heat during the day, but condensed as cloud droplets high in the atmosphere, reflects sunlight during the day and has a net cooling effect but traps heat during the night. So water vapour is both a forcing element and a feedback. Regardless, it isn't being studied much.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#12 Postby Sanibel » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:50 pm

Which makes me wonder if that water vapor is hidden in the 12 inch floods and record snows this year. People look at one variable of climate like this cold snowy winter and shout that GW is wrong but could miss subtle signs like record snow and maybe an extra inch or two in Missouri from that extra water vapor added by GW. That is why GW is so tricky because it could be happening in indirect ways not immediately apparent. Drier droughts, heavier floods etc.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#13 Postby x-y-no » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:30 am

wbug1 wrote:Perhaps I should have been more precise in my statement. Water vapour, not condensed as cloud droplets traps heat during the day, but condensed as cloud droplets high in the atmosphere, reflects sunlight during the day and has a net cooling effect but traps heat during the night. So water vapour is both a forcing element and a feedback. Regardless, it isn't being studied much.


I don't understand the basis of your assertion that "it isn't being studied much." Water vapor has always been a crucial part of any realistic modeling and the possibility of systematic changes in cloud cover in a changing climate is an intense area of research.
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Re: Researcher: Basic Greenhouse Equations "Totally Wrong"

#14 Postby wbug1 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:25 am

x-y-no wrote:
wbug1 wrote:Perhaps I should have been more precise in my statement. Water vapour, not condensed as cloud droplets traps heat during the day, but condensed as cloud droplets high in the atmosphere, reflects sunlight during the day and has a net cooling effect but traps heat during the night. So water vapour is both a forcing element and a feedback. Regardless, it isn't being studied much.


I don't understand the basis of your assertion that "it isn't being studied much." Water vapor has always been a crucial part of any realistic modeling and the possibility of systematic changes in cloud cover in a changing climate is an intense area of research.


Not really MY assertion, although I'm not sure how many of this new (GPS-IPW)type of measuring station is used in countries outside the US. Before 2005, water vapour measurement globally was a shambles and any current climate models don't reflect the current global water vapor situation, and data previous to 2005 is almost non-existent. I don't know (nobody does) how current water vapour have changed over the past 50 years.

http://www.fsl.noaa.gov/media/hotitems/ ... n29-2.html

Problems with water vapour measurement:

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/news/4742.html
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