Models Develop a Disturbance Near Florida (Is invest 90L)

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jlauderdal
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#221 Postby jlauderdal » Sat May 16, 2009 2:09 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:I find today's HPC model discussion somewhat uninformative, probably because they aren't at all sure what might happen.


SOUTHEAST US/FL/GULF OF MEXICO...
THERE IS GOOD AGREEMENT A BROAD AREA OF LOW PRESSURE OVER THE
NORTHWEST CARIBBEAN DRIFTS NORTHWEST WITH TIME INTO THE GULF OF
MEXICO UNDER AN UPPER LOW OVER THE EASTERN GULF THAT CLOSES OFF BY
00Z WED 20 MAY AND MOVES SLOWLY WITH TIME. A LARGE SPRAWLING AREA
OF LOWER HEIGHTS/PRESSURES IS FCST BY ALL OF THE MODELS...WITH THE
00Z GFS SLIGHTLY DEEPER/FURTHER NORTH WITH ITS LOW CENTER THAN THE
ECMWF/UKMET/CANADIAN MODELS AND ECMWF/NCEP MEANS. THE 06Z GFS
TRENDED NORTH WITH THE CIRCULATION SFC AND ALOFT AND LOOKS TO BE
AN OUTLIER SOLUTION SO NO CHANGES WERE MADE FOLLOWING THE 06Z GFS.
A BLENDED SOLUTION WAS USED HERE DUE TO THE WIDE SPREAD OF WHERE
THE SFC CENTER (OR CENTERS) WILL BE LOCATED WITHIN THE LG AREA OF
LOW PRESSURE/HEIGHTS.


i think its informative:
1. GFS is outlier
2. Others in fair agreement on a farther south idea that gfs.
3. GFS as usual has heavyweight status therefore they blended everything down the middle. The key here is GFS weighting is big and is offsetting the weight of multiple other models, doesnt mean it will be correct and may come around and agree with others but no need for the forecaster to do anything crazy like discount the preferred gfs model at this time.

As usual we have a whole season of this in front of us, aint it fun.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#222 Postby NDG » Sat May 16, 2009 2:09 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:Euro's strongest winds (see link above) somewhat removed from low center, suggesting, in its own little way, not a purely tropical system.


I agree, according to those graphics, no more than subtropical status. Though, the euro has never been the best for forecasting a cyclone's strength.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#223 Postby jinftl » Sat May 16, 2009 2:10 pm

Some past 'early bloomers' in the same general region...

Image


Image

Image



Does anyone know the deal with this system....a Cat 3 off the North Carolina in May...and what a scare that must have been for south florida too!
Image
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#224 Postby NDG » Sat May 16, 2009 2:15 pm

jlauderdal wrote:you start seeing vertically stacked and surface low in the same writeup over tropical waters around hurricane season you take notice. its still May so no need to go crazy but its a very interesting setup to watch develop the next few days as there is plenty of weather coming together at once, it will be worth watching to see how it all plays out in the final solution


AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
215 PM EDT SAT MAY 16 2009

DISCUSSION
LOOKS LIKE THIS FORECAST PACKAGE WILL BE SOMEWHAT
STATUS QUO AT LEAST THROUGH SUNDAY AND NO DOUBT EVEN INTO MONDAY.
MODELS ARE COMING MORE IN LINE WITH MID LEVEL AND SURFACE FEATURES
DEVELOPMENT BUT STILL ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE IN TIMING AND
LOCATION ISSUES. ALL OF THE MODELS ARE DIGGING STRONG TROUGH INTO
THE SOUTHEAST STATES AND THEN CUTTING OFF A MID LEVEL LOW AT THE
BASE OF THE TROUGH EARLY NEXT WEEK. THIS WILL AID IN THE PULLING
OF DEEPER LAYER MOISTURE NORTHWARD AND BEGIN TO INCREASE CHANCES
OF RAIN AS EARLY AS SUNDAY. THE GFS, NAM AND ECMWF ALL CONTINUE
SURFACE AND MID LEVEL RIDGING TO THE NORTH OF OUR REGION WITH DEEP
SOUTHEAST FLOW. THE GFS AND NAM FORECAST SOUNDINGS SHOW PWAT
INCREASING TO ABOVE 1.5 INCHES WHILE THE ECMWF KEEPS IT UNDER BUT
OVERALL PATTERN WILL BE SIMILAR TO TODAY ALBEIT A LITTLE MORE
COVERAGE IN RAINFALL. THAT IS TO SAY, BEST CHANCES OF RAINFALL
ALONG THE EAST COAST WILL BE LATE TONIGHT/SATURDAY MORNING
SHIFTING TO THE INTERIOR AND SOUTHWEST COAST BY AFTERNOON AND
EVENING. BY MONDAY, MOISTURE WILL INCREASE EVEN FURTHER AS MID
LEVEL LOW CONTINUES TO DEEPEN INTO THE NORTHEAST GULF OF MEXICO.
HOWEVER, THIS IS ALSO WHEN THE FORECAST BEGINS TO GET A LITTLE
HAZY. THE NAM IS THE QUICKEST TO CUTTING OFF A MID LEVEL LOW BY
MONDAY AND EVEN DEVELOPS A SURFACE LOW OVER THE YUCATAN CHANNEL
LATE SUNDAY WHICH SEEMS SUSPECT AS THE MID/UPPER FEATURE IS STILL
FAR TO THE NORTH OF THAT REGION AT THAT TIME. IT THEN DEVELOPS A
FULLY DEVELOPED VERTICALLY STACKED SYSTEM ON TUESDAY OVER THE
SOUTHEAST GULF OFF THE NORTHWEST COAST OF CUBA. THE GFS SHOWS THE
LOW BEGINNING TO CUT OFF OVER THE EASTERN GULF WITH SURFACE LOW
DEVELOPING OVER THE FL STRAITS MONDAY NIGHT. ITS SYSTEM GETS FULLY
DEVELOPED BY LATE TUESDAY WITH PWAT INCREASING TO TWO PLUS INCHES
ACROSS SOUTH FLORIDA. IT THEN DRIFTS THE LOW TO THE NORTH THROUGH
THE END OF THE WEEK. THE ECMWF DOES NOT CUT OFF A LOW UNTIL LATE
TUESDAY BUT ALSO OVER THE SOUTHEAST GULF WITH A FULLY DEVELOPED
LOW NOT UNTIL AT LEAST MID WEEK AND THEN DRIFTS IT NORTH INTO NEXT
WEEKEND. HAVING SAID THIS HANDFUL, IT APPEARS WE WILL BE GETTING
SOME MUCH BENEFICIAL RAINFALL THIS NEXT WEEK BUT WHAT REMAINS TO
BE SEEN IS THE AMOUNT OF THIS RAINFALL AND THE STRENGTH OF THE
CONVECTION WHICH WILL BE DETERMINED BY POSITION OF BOTH SURFACE
AND MID LEVEL FEATURES. STAY TUNED


Well, at least mfl is starting to get a little more convinced for a wet week for S FL.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#225 Postby cycloneye » Sat May 16, 2009 2:16 pm

After looking at all the models at the 12z timeframe,my conclusion is that GFS and UKMET show the best solutions,having the system brushing South Florida and then getting into the GOM intensifying some,then going down in intensity as it moves northward towards the coast.
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#226 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat May 16, 2009 2:19 pm

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/gmex/loop-rb.html
Convection is really expanding just south of Cuba...
and the trough is visible extending into the SE gulf (notice
the linear "band" that goes NNW to SSE across the GOM
and NW Caribbean).

There appear to be several small vorticies over and just south of Cuba.
These of course are associated with the trough that is producing the aforementioned
somewhat linear band of convection over the SE GOM and NW Caribbean.
The most favorable area for future low development appears to be
just south of Cuba, and this is where the heaviest convection is.

I think we will see an invest by tomorrow if the convection continues to increase
and the low pressure vortex just South of Cuba, while not very well defined
right now, becomes better defined. Lots of rain and wind over Cuba
and Florida should take place over the next several days.
I do think with cold air aloft and instability along with the squally
nature of sub-tropical systems that there may be some damaging
wind events over FL/Cuba over the next 2-5 days.
Last edited by Tampa Bay Hurricane on Sat May 16, 2009 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#227 Postby aOl » Sat May 16, 2009 2:31 pm

NWS Mobile mentions it but doesn't sound too concerned... especially since any precip would likely be well east of the center (ie Arlene in 2005)

.LONG TERM...(MONDAY NIGHT THROUGH SATURDAY)BY MONDAY NIGHT...THE
ENERGY WHICH HAD BEEN PUSHING SOUTH WITH THE SURFACE FRONT FINALLY
MOVES SOUTH ENOUGH FOR SHOWERS TO END EVEN OVER THE ENTIRE MARINE FA
BY TUESDAY EVENING. AS THIS ENERGY MOVES OVER THE SOUTHEASTERN GULF
OF MEX...GUIDANCE IS ADVERTISING A SYSTEM FORMING...BY WED EVE NEAR
SOUTHERN FL FOR THE GFS...EAST OF THE YUCATAN PENINSULA FOR THE ECMWF.

FROM WEDNESDAY EVENING THROUGH SATURDAY IS WHERE THINGS GET MORE INTERESTING.
GFS STILL CONTINUES TO MEANDER THE SYSTEM NORTH TOWARDS THE NORTHERN
GULF COAST...WHILE THE 16/00Z ECMWF HAS TRENDED TOWARDS THE GFS SOLUTION.
ECMWF IS A BIT SLOWER WITH THE SYSTEM...WITH THE SURFACE LOW
REACHING THE FL PANHANDLE BY MONDAY MORN...FRIDAY MORN FOR THE GFS.
WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE FORECAST IS INCREASING CHANCES FOR RAIN AFTER
A LULL MID WEEK.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#228 Postby cycloneye » Sat May 16, 2009 2:32 pm

Dr Jeff Masters latest analysis

Still watching for a potential early-season Atlantic subtropical storm


Posted by: JeffMasters, 7:10 PM GMT on May 16, 2009

The latest 00Z and 12Z runs of the GFS, UKMET, NOGAPS, and ECMWF global dynamical computer models continue to indicate the possibility of an early season subtropical storm forming in the Gulf of Mexico 3 - 7 days from now. A modest area of low shear air is expected to open up between the polar jet stream to the north and the subtropical jet stream to the south, between Cuba and the northern Gulf of Mexico. The models have not been consistent with the timing or the size of this low shear area, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them back off again from this forecast with Sunday's set of runs. Nevertheless, I'll call once again for a 10% chance of development of a subtropical depression in the eastern Gulf of Mexico, 4 - 7 days from now. There isn't much of a disturbance at present to look at--there are some scattered showers between Cuba and Jamaica, but they are under a hefty 30 knots of wind shear. These showers should gradually increase in intensity and areal coverage over the next two days, and phase space diagrams from Florida State University indicate that an extratropical low may form near the western tip of Cuba 2 - 3 days from now. The storm may then gradually transition to a subtropical or tropical system later in the week, if the shear is low enough. Even if the shear is high and the storm remains extratropical, it could be a substantial rain-maker where it comes ashore. The models target the northern Gulf Coast between Louisiana and the Florida Panhandle as the most likely landfall location, but it is too early to place any confidence in this track.
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#229 Postby brunota2003 » Sat May 16, 2009 2:33 pm

I'm supposed to go to Orlando this coming friday for Memorial Day Weekend
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#230 Postby Aric Dunn » Sat May 16, 2009 2:35 pm

cycloneye wrote:Dr Jeff Masters latest analysis

Still watching for a potential early-season Atlantic subtropical storm


Posted by: JeffMasters, 7:10 PM GMT on May 16, 2009

The latest 00Z and 12Z runs of the GFS, UKMET, NOGAPS, and ECMWF global dynamical computer models continue to indicate the possibility of an early season subtropical storm forming in the Gulf of Mexico 3 - 7 days from now. A modest area of low shear air is expected to open up between the polar jet stream to the north and the subtropical jet stream to the south, between Cuba and the northern Gulf of Mexico. The models have not been consistent with the timing or the size of this low shear area, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them back off again from this forecast with Sunday's set of runs. Nevertheless, I'll call once again for a 10% chance of development of a subtropical depression in the eastern Gulf of Mexico, 4 - 7 days from now. There isn't much of a disturbance at present to look at--there are some scattered showers between Cuba and Jamaica, but they are under a hefty 30 knots of wind shear. These showers should gradually increase in intensity and areal coverage over the next two days, and phase space diagrams from Florida State University indicate that an extratropical low may form near the western tip of Cuba 2 - 3 days from now. The storm may then gradually transition to a subtropical or tropical system later in the week, if the shear is low enough. Even if the shear is high and the storm remains extratropical, it could be a substantial rain-maker where it comes ashore. The models target the northern Gulf Coast between Louisiana and the Florida Panhandle as the most likely landfall location, but it is too early to place any confidence in this track.


thats sounds about right to me.. !!
good analysis :D
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#231 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Sat May 16, 2009 2:40 pm

This being May with some shear still expected:
I give the chances for various storm types:
50% Chance of an Extratropical Storm
30% Chance of a Subtropical Storm
20% Chance of a Tropical Storm

In the NW Caribbean or SE GOM next week.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#232 Postby Ivanhater » Sat May 16, 2009 2:43 pm

Gulf SST as of May 15

Image
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#233 Postby canetracker » Sat May 16, 2009 3:27 pm

I noticed the sst's for the 15th of May earlier. Also, look how fast the GOM is warming up. The below animation is from May 5th -15th.
Image
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#234 Postby canetracker » Sat May 16, 2009 3:34 pm

Image

You gotta love that Loop Current. Whatever may develop, according to the models, is supposed to move slowly over it and possibly feed Florida some much needed moisture.
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#235 Postby cycloneye » Sat May 16, 2009 3:38 pm

Whatever disturbance may develop,it will come out from this general area.

Image

http://rammb.cira.colostate.edu/ramsdis ... opical.asp
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#236 Postby lrak » Sat May 16, 2009 3:45 pm

Seems like only yesterday we were discussing this stuff, good luck to us all this season! :D

:spam:
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#237 Postby aOl » Sat May 16, 2009 3:51 pm

Looks like shear will lessen substantially in 126 hours through 168 hours.

Image
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Re: Models Develop a Disturbance in the GOM Late Next Week

#238 Postby cycloneye » Sat May 16, 2009 3:55 pm

18z NAM turns into outlier

Distint from GFS,NOGAPS,CMC,ECMWF and UKMET in terms of track.

Image
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#239 Postby gatorcane » Sat May 16, 2009 3:57 pm

That NAM run is the outlier at this point. But just about 1 day ago other models were trying to bring it up into South Florida or the Bahamas so who knows. I suspect alot of "track" changes to happen since we don't even have a closed low yet....

One thing to note about the NAM -- it develops it more quickly and so it gets sucked up by the CONUS trough....other models wait longer and the trough has passed by at that point. That probably explains the difference in track.

We sure need the rain so I like what the NAM is doing. :D

As a side note winds are picking up in South Florida out of the East now gusting to 25-30mph on some of the reefs and the air is markedly more "tropical" than it has been yet....a sign something may be trying to brew up to our south.
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#240 Postby gatorcane » Sat May 16, 2009 4:06 pm

Fowey Rocks of Miami is definitely seeing an increase in winds as strong high pressure builds in from the Western Atlantic .Some lower pressures are starting to enter the Caribbean waters to our south over Cuba which I think is starting to enhance the gradient just a tad more than normal.

Graph showing wind speed and gusts at Fowey Rocks off Miami, Florida:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php? ... _label=EDT
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