ATL: TROPICAL DEPRESSION ALEX - DISCUSSION

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gatorcane
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#921 Postby gatorcane » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:02 am

KWT wrote:
HouTXmetro wrote: Is that a plausible explanation as to why 93L hasn't been able to get it's act together? the feature behind it has been steadily zapping it's energy.


Sort of, more like the first wave never had good enough conditions aloft with regards to creating instablity whilst the better region for that was further east, plus the shear looks just a little bit weaker on that side as well.


One thing I mentioned before is that it is not guaranteed a wave is going to develop just because the conditions are ideal. Let's face it, there really has been no model consensus on development with this system. When I see the globals (ECMWF and GFS) either not developing or flip-flopping on development (ECMWF), that's a pretty big clue to me that there is something the models are seeing that indicates it may not develop. I should add UKMET and NOGAPS have not been onboard on development either, really.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#922 Postby cycloneye » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:07 am

Is slowing down.

LATCUR = 16.5N LONCUR = 79.6W DIRCUR = 285DEG SPDCUR = 8KT
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#923 Postby tolakram » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:10 am

I think I see what wxman is talking abut.

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... umframes=5

First visible frames, look at the inflow below the storms SE of Jamaica. Looks to be heading directly under the convection.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#924 Postby KWT » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:16 am

gatorcane wrote:
One thing I mentioned before is that it is not guaranteed a wave is going to develop just because the conditions are ideal. Let's face it, there really has been no model consensus on development with this system. When I see the globals (ECMWF and GFS) either not developing or flip-flopping on development (ECMWF), that's a pretty big clue to me that there is something the models are seeing that indicates it may not develop. I should add UKMET and NOGAPS have not been onboard on development either, really.


Indeed but usually something isn't ideal and the models miss something, I think thats what has happened this time round, it clearly missed some shear IMO and I think it didn't see the lack of upper divergence, though I think the GFS did catch that.

Anyway I think we need to shift eastwards as some have said...the western wave just isn't going to have the time to develop now I think.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#925 Postby tolakram » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:19 am

To add to that.

GFS doesn't see Darby or develop 93L. Let's say GFS starts to develop 93L ... I won't believe it because there is clearly some outflow from Darby that may effect shear down the road and GFS doesn't even see Darby. It's an odd setup, not sure what to think.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#926 Postby tolakram » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:25 am

Look at the spin:

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The next area of spin is moving into or just south, sw of Haiti. Going by this image alone I would say 93L may have missed it's chance.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#927 Postby Stormcenter » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:35 am

Good post and I agree.


gatorcane wrote:
KWT wrote:
HouTXmetro wrote: Is that a plausible explanation as to why 93L hasn't been able to get it's act together? the feature behind it has been steadily zapping it's energy.


Sort of, more like the first wave never had good enough conditions aloft with regards to creating instablity whilst the better region for that was further east, plus the shear looks just a little bit weaker on that side as well.


One thing I mentioned before is that it is not guaranteed a wave is going to develop just because the conditions are ideal. Let's face it, there really has been no model consensus on development with this system. When I see the globals (ECMWF and GFS) either not developing or flip-flopping on development (ECMWF), that's a pretty big clue to me that there is something the models are seeing that indicates it may not develop. I should add UKMET and NOGAPS have not been onboard on development either, really.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#928 Postby tailgater » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:47 am

I don't see anything SE of Jamaica. I do see some good rotation SW of Jamaica @ 15.8 -81.5 that has little convection. also bouy 42057
Wind Direction (WDIR): E ( 80 deg true )
Wind Speed (WSPD): 11.7 kts
Wind Gust (GST): 17.5 kts
Wave Height (WVHT): 4.3 ft
Dominant Wave Period (DPD): 8 sec
Average Period (APD): 5.1 sec
Atmospheric Pressure (PRES): 29.79 in
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#929 Postby Frank2 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:57 am

It doesn't look like much, that's for sure:

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/vis-l.jpg

P.S. I'm glad Evan's Dad (a/k/a Mr. Darby, who's name was submitted to the WMO a number of years ago) is down in the EPAC to provide some good shear...
Last edited by Frank2 on Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#930 Postby Florida1118 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:08 am

Blog From Jeff Masters:
The amount and intensity of heavy thunderstorm activity associated with the tropical wave (Invest 93L) located a few hundred miles south of Jamaica has increased over the past 24 hours, but the storm remains very disorganized and is not a threat to develop into a tropical depression today. The storm has not brought heavy rains to Haiti, fortunately, but heavy rains are expected today across Jamaica, where flash flood warnings have been posted. Satellite loops show a very disorganized system, with no low-level spiral bands and limited upper-level outflow. There are no signs of a surface circulation visible on satellite imagery. Pressures at the ground station nearest to the storm (Kingston) are beginning to fall, as are pressures at buoy 42057 a few hundred miles west of the storm, a sign that 93L is more organized than yesterday. Water vapor satellite loops show that moist air surrounds 93L, and there is less dry air to the storm's southwest than there was yesterday. There is an upper-level high pressure system a few hundred miles west of 93L, and the clockwise flow air around this high is bringing upper-level winds out of the northwest of about 10 knots over 93L, contributing to the 10 knots of wind shear observed in this morning's wind shear analysis from the University of Wisconsin's CIMSS group. Sea Surface Temperatures are plenty warm, a record 29 - 30°C. The Madden-Julian oscillation (MJO) currently favors upward motion over the Caribbean, which will act to increase the chances of tropical storm formation this week. The main negative for 93L continues to be the lack of spin. Last night's pass of the ASCAT satellite showed little in the way of a wind shift associated with 93L, though the pass did not completely capture the storm. The University of Wisconsin 850 mb relative vorticity analysis is showing that spin at 850 mb (roughly 5,000 feet in altitude) has increased over the past two days. The Hurricane Hunters are on call to investigate 93L Friday afternoon. Today's flight was canceled, due to 93L's lack of development.
I expect that by tomorrow, 93L should be closer to being directly underneath the upper level high pressure system to its west, which would act to lower wind shear and provide more favorable upper-level outflow. NHC is giving 93L a 40% chance of developing into a tropical depression by Saturday morning, which is a reasonable forecast. Given the storm's current lack of spin and relatively modest amount of heavy thunderstorms, the earliest I'd expect 93L to become a tropical depression would be Friday afternoon, with Friday night or Saturday morning more likely. Interaction with land will be a problem for 93L, as it will likely move over Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula or Western Cuba on Saturday. Expect 93L to bring flooding rains of 3 - 6 inches to Jamaica and eastern Cuba today through Friday. These rains will spread to the Cayman Islands, northern Honduras, and central Cuba Friday through Saturday, and western Cuba, Belize, and Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula on Saturday and Sunday. The current run of the SHIPS model has 93L slowing down late this week to a forward speed of just 7 knots (8 mph) from its current speed of about 10 mph, in response to a weakening in the steering currents. A trough of low pressure is expected to swing down over the Eastern U.S. on Monday. If this trough is strong enough and 93L develops significantly, the storm could get pulled northwards and make landfall along the northern Gulf of Mexico coast. This is the solution of the GFS, GFDL, and HWRF models. If 93L stays weak and/or the trough is not so strong, the storm would get pushed west-northwestwards across Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula and towards the Texas or Mexican coast south of Texas. This is the solution of the NOGAPS, ECMWF, and Canadian models. A likely landfall location is impossible to speculate on reliably at this point, and the storm could hit virtually anywhere along the Gulf of Mexico coast given the current uncertainty in its development. A key factor will be how far north the center of 93L eventually consolidates at.
The amount of wind shear in the Gulf of Mexico next week is highly uncertain. There is currently a band of high shear near 30 knots over the Gulf. The GFS model predicts that this band of high shear will lift northwards, keeping low wind shear over the Gulf next week. However, the ECMWF model keeps high shear entrenched over the Gulf of Mexico. I give 93L a 50% chance of eventually becoming Tropical Storm Alex, but the odds of it eventually becoming a hurricane have lessened to 10%. None of the computer models is calling for 93L to become a hurricane.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#931 Postby Steve H. » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:10 am

I actually do see a circulation SE of Jamaica. You need a closeup image like the NASA/Goddard site to see it, but it's definitely east of the wave axis, which is heading west and will be near the bay of Honduras later today. I think the area SE of Jamaica has some promise, but I'm not losing sleep over this. Save your energy for the rest of the season. We're going to need it.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#932 Postby tolakram » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:18 am

http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... umframes=7

I see more rapid inflow on the right side of this image vs directly below the blob of convection, but overall it still looks terribly confused.

pressure is staying fairly low at the buoy well west of the convection.

Image
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=42057
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#933 Postby Chacor » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:25 am

cycloneye wrote:Is slowing down.

LATCUR = 16.5N LONCUR = 79.6W DIRCUR = 285DEG SPDCUR = 8KT


The ATCF file suggests a motion of 282 deg/7 kt over the last 24 hours (23/12z to 24/12z).
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#934 Postby tailgater » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:26 am

:uarrow: I'm sorry, I just don't see it to the southeast of Jamaica, looks like all the ll clouds are streaming off to the NW.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#935 Postby ConvergenceZone » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:29 am

I agree with Jeff Masters, the chance of this becomming a hurricane down the road is extremely slim, but a decent chance we can get a tropical storm out of it.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#936 Postby Sanibel » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:32 am

It isn't surprising for June to be hostile in the Caribbean. 93L entered a Caribbean with shear and drier air blowing-off its convection to its east. It's a weak spiral heading west near Honduras. I'm not sure what the rest of the mess is with red IR energy, but I suppose it is butting-up into the same June feature.
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#937 Postby jabman98 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:05 am

93L has made the news. I heard it mentioned on two radio stations while I was in the car this morning. Plus on the map on the Today Show weather segment they circled the area and mentioned it. All three called it a tropical wave. I guess it has hit the weather news services.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#938 Postby Hugo1989 » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:10 am

Saludos a todos:
Cerca de la 8.5N y 36W aprecio un sistema compacto y tomando algun giro. Observen el mapa y me corrigen,

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/tatl/flash-rb.html

Greetings to all:
Near 36W 8.5N I can see a system in circular motion. check the map
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Re: ATL: INVEST 93L - DISCUSSION

#939 Postby cycloneye » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:13 am

Hugo1989 wrote:Saludos a todos:
Cerca de la 8.5N y 36W aprecio un sistema compacto y tomando algun giro. Observen el mapa y me corrigen,

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/tatl/flash-rb.html

Greetings to all:
Near 36W 8.5N I can see a system in circular motion. check the map


Tenemos un topico dedicado a ese systema en el foro sobre los tropicos.

Enlace aqui= viewtopic.php?f=31&t=108284&p=1995921#p1995921

We have a topic about that wave at Talking tropics.
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Re:

#940 Postby Farseer » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:14 am

jabman98 wrote:93L has made the news. I heard it mentioned on two radio stations while I was in the car this morning. Plus on the map on the Today Show weather segment they circled the area and mentioned it. All three called it a tropical wave. I guess it has hit the weather news services.


The wave has been mentioned several times on CNBC since Tuesday.
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