ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Message
Author
Dean4Storms
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 6358
Age: 62
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:01 pm
Location: Miramar Bch. FL

Re:

#1441 Postby Dean4Storms » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:19 pm

supercane wrote:
Dean4Storms wrote:Yea, I believe the ECM was showing it closing off near western Cuba on the 12z run, we'll need to see if any models pick this up and if the ECM continues with that solution.

Nope. See the loop here and refer to AJC3 in the Gaston model thread:
AJC3 wrote:It's definitely not Gaston, and it's not PGI42L, nor is it ex-99L either. The Euro moves the low that it initializes near 20N 27W westward to around 45W through H96 and dampens it out. Meanwhile, it starts to spin up something in situ over the islands near 15N 60W at around H96 and pushes it westward to 15N 70W at H156, over Jamaica at H192, just south of the Isle of Youth at H216, and then over the extreme western tip of Cuba at H240



My bad. I assumed it was Gaston, but no way after looking back at it. Thanks for the heads up!!
0 likes   

User avatar
Steve
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9621
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:41 pm
Location: Not a state-caster

#1442 Postby Steve » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:20 pm

Early Cycle 00z Intensity is baffling though.
Image



Quote=Ivanhater: GFDL

The 18z only takes it down to 971 and slams Central America. HWRF is still super slow near Cuba by Saturday. I just don't see that.
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11161
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1443 Postby Ivanhater » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:27 pm

Bailey1777 wrote:last comment and then back to topic the crow is just in fun as the thread is slow. i have said from the begining that i believe this will be a major, right now i look foolish but i have seen this before.i'll tell you what i will bet you a 20 dollar donation to storm2k that gaston becomes a hurricane.deal?



Great bet :D

Bailey asked me to keep check on the bet so I will. No penalties if you can't keep the bet, so no worries :D
0 likes   
Michael

supercane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2858
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:27 pm

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1444 Postby supercane » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:31 pm

Ivanhater wrote:Agree with you for the most part, except for the no global model support. GFDL makes it a cat 3 :D

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but GFDL is not a global model. 12Z models indeed show no support, as shown below, and includes the ECMWF (not shown below but see the link):
Image
And yes, by definition neither is NAM.

BTW, even though ex-Gaston looks pitiful now, would not take the bet as above unless it were for Gaston to be a major hurricane.
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11161
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1445 Postby Ivanhater » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:31 pm

LGEM has been very persistent on ramping this up to a CAT 4. This model, from what I'm told is usually conservative, so it will be interesting how the intensity verification comes out.
0 likes   
Michael

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11161
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1446 Postby Ivanhater » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:36 pm

supercane wrote:
Ivanhater wrote:Agree with you for the most part, except for the no global model support. GFDL makes it a cat 3 :D

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but GFDL is not a global model. 12Z models indeed show no support, as shown below, and includes the ECMWF (not shown below but see the link):
http://a.imageshack.us/img825/2538/trac ... 2tcatl.gif[
And yes, by definition neither is NAM.

BTW, even though ex-Gaston looks pitiful now, would not take the bet as above unless it were for Gaston to be a major hurricane.


Yep, I should have rephrased.

As I stated above, the intensity verification will be very interesting. Very odd to see the LGEM so consistent on ramping this up. The history with the global models is also very interesting with Gaston. This is the storm that not one model saw developing, which is rare in itself. What implications (if any) that has on his future, I'm not sure...
0 likes   
Michael

User avatar
Steve
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 9621
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:41 pm
Location: Not a state-caster

#1447 Postby Steve » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:44 pm

Exactly. And it's worth watching if for nothing else, about 7 of the intensity models are at Cat 1 in the 4-5 day period. I don't think HWRF is right in keeping it that slow as ex-Gaston has been booking across the Atlantic. And even if they're overdone, 4-5 days, it could be anywhere from the Bahamas down to Cuba, Jamaica or even in the SW Caribbean. Maybe nothing happens, but I think the prudent response is to pay attention rather saying "no" or "yes" since we really don't know. Maybe Wed Night or Thursday the evolution will shed some light on whether it's a real threat or just a surge of easterlies moving through. I'm paying attention.
0 likes   

User avatar
ROCK
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 9484
Age: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:30 am
Location: Kemah, Texas

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1448 Postby ROCK » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:50 pm

fci wrote:
Bailey1777 wrote:i have kept up with this one as much as anyone and maybe you need to go back and read all the poof, goner, and stick a fork in it post before you get involved. i call it like i see it, if i'm wrong i will be the first to admit it. carry on.

I commented because I thought your crow comment was smarmy. So if Gaston cones back, people eat crow?
All I said was if you throw out that gauntlet, accept that those who have been continually hyping deserve the same smarmy comment.
Personally, I gave never used the "crow" comment because it seems petty to me
Oh, and I have been keeping up with thread if only because the Pro Mets have been expecting redevelopment.
At this point I would say those who have suggested "poof" are looking better, don't you?
Me, I haven't predicted anything since Gaston has been an enigma.



Can we stay OT please? you are not providing anything to this thread but wasted space....you are not the comment police.... :roll: take it to the PMs......now I just wasted even more space on this thread by commenting...I blame you... :D
0 likes   

User avatar
gatorcane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23691
Age: 47
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:54 pm
Location: Boca Raton, FL

#1449 Postby gatorcane » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:51 pm

I have officially given up on Gaston and have learned to not ignore the global models which have really backed off on development. I just don't see it developing anytime soon or ever perhaps. Should see code yellow by tomorrow then probably will be dropped soon after.

Next please! Time continues to tick for the cape verde season......
Last edited by gatorcane on Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
0 likes   

BigB0882
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 12:08 am
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Contact:

#1450 Postby BigB0882 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:52 pm

I remember when one or more of the models had Gaston absolutely crawling near its current location. That was obviously very far from verifying. The models just haven't been able to latch onto this one, probably because of its size and since for much of its life it hasn't been a TC.
0 likes   

User avatar
ROCK
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 9484
Age: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:30 am
Location: Kemah, Texas

Re:

#1451 Postby ROCK » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:55 pm

gatorcane wrote:I have officially given up on Gaston and have learned to not ignore the global models which have really backed off on development. I just don't see it developing anytime soon or ever perhaps. Should see code yellow by tomorrow then probably will be dropped soon after.

Next please!



you right Gator...time to go over to the 99L thread...see you there.... :lol:
0 likes   

User avatar
cycloneye
Admin
Admin
Posts: 145307
Age: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:54 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1452 Postby cycloneye » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:59 pm

bvigal, here is tonights update from San Juan.

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SAN JUAN PR
1053 PM AST MON SEP 6 2010

.UPDATE...AREA OF LOW PRESSURE ASSOCIATED WITH THE REMNANTS OF
GASTON...WAS QUICKLY APPROACHING THE NORTHERN LEEWARDS...AND
REMAINED FAIRLY DISORGANIZED. EARLIER SATELLITE IMAGERY SHOWED WEAK
LOW LEVEL CIRCULATION WITH ONLY MODERATE AMOUNTS OF CONVECTION JUST
NORTH AND WEST OF THE CIRCULATION. DURING THE PAST COUPLE OF HOURS...
SATELLITE IMAGERY AS WELL AS WELL...AS THE SATELLITE DERIVED HOURLY
ESTIMATED RAINFALL/HYDRO-ESTIMATOR PRODUCT SHOWED A STEADY DECLINE
IN CONVECTIVE ACTIVITY AND PRECIPITATION AROUND THIS FEATURE. IN
ADDITION...LATEST WEATHER OUTLOOK FROM THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER
SUGGESTED THAT BECAUSE THE REMNANTS OF GASTON REMAIN POORLY DEFINED...
AND THE SURROUNDING ENVIRONMENT IS MARGINALLY CONDUCIVE FOR DEVELOPMENT...
THERE IS NOW ONLY A MEDIUM CHANCE...50 PERCENT...OF THIS SYSTEM BECOMING
A TROPICAL CYCLONE DURING THE NEXT 48 HOURS.

LATEST GFS MODEL GUIDANCE SUGGESTS THIS SYSTEM TO QUICKLY MOVE ACROSS
THE REGION AS AN OPEN WAVE...WHILE THE NAM WAS MORE AGGRESSIVE AND BROUGHT
THE SYSTEM CLOSER TOO AND ACROSS THE LOCAL ISLANDS BY EARLY WEDNESDAY
MORNING. WITH THAT SAID...AND REGARDLESS OF FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OR
NOT...STILL EXPECT FAIRLY ACTIVE WEATHER...WITH INCREASING CLOUDINESS
AND THE POTENTIAL FOR LOCALLY HEAVY RAINFALL AND WIND GUSTS POSSIBLY
TO NEAR TROPICAL STORM FORCE ACCOMPANYING SQUALLS AS IT MOVES ACROSS
THE LOCAL AREA TUESDAY AFTERNOON THROUGH WEDNESDAY. THEREFORE NO
MAJOR CHANGES WERE MADE TO THE INHERITED FORECAST PACKAGE AT THIS
TIME...EXCEPT FOR THE SHORT TERM FORECAST WINDS BASED ON THE
LATEST MODEL GUIDANCE... SHIP REPORTS AND BUOY DATA. RESIDENTS AND
VISITORS SHOULD STILL REMAIN VIGILANT AND CLOSELY MONITOR THE
PROGRESS OF THIS SYSTEM AS IT MOVES ACROSS THE LOCAL REGION OVER
THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

&&

.AVIATION UPDATE...VFR CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED TO PREVAIL ACROSS MOST TAF
SITES AT LEAST THROUGH 07/12Z. SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS ASSOCIATED WITH
LEAD BANDS OF FORMER TS GASTON WILL REACH TNCM AND TKPK AFTER 07/06Z...
BRINGING BRIEF MVFR CONDS AND GUSTY WINDS TO 20 KT OVERNIGHT.
THESE SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS SHOULD REACH THE VI BY 07/012Z AND
TJSJ AFT 07/16Z WITH MVFR CONDITIONS. THESE CONDITIONS WILL SPREAD
WESTWARD TO TJPS...TJMZ...AND TJBQ...AFTER 07/16Z.

0 likes   
Visit the Caribbean-Central America Weather Thread where you can find at first post web cams,radars
and observations from Caribbean basin members Click Here

Bailey1777
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 962
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:23 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1453 Postby Bailey1777 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:01 pm

if no models are latching on what is that intensity chart made up of?
0 likes   

User avatar
Ivanhater
Storm2k Moderator
Storm2k Moderator
Posts: 11161
Age: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Pensacola

Re: Re:

#1454 Postby Ivanhater » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:05 pm

ROCK wrote:
gatorcane wrote:I have officially given up on Gaston and have learned to not ignore the global models which have really backed off on development. I just don't see it developing anytime soon or ever perhaps. Should see code yellow by tomorrow then probably will be dropped soon after.

Next please!



you right Gator...time to go over to the 99L thread...see you there.... :lol:


Wait, I'm a bit confused on Gator's comment about learning not to ignore the global models. Again, these are the same global models that not one saw Gaston developing in the first place, but he sure did. Why would they all of a sudden get it right the second time? They could very well be right this time, but quite a few intensity models bring this up to hurricane status and even major hurricane status. That is enough for me to be weary.
0 likes   
Michael

User avatar
abajan
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 4230
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:10 am
Location: Barbados

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1455 Postby abajan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:05 pm

Gustywind wrote:
bvigal wrote:Gusty, what do you think? TWO "medium chance" or TWD "high chance"? Both at 8pm. OK, now I'm confused, :wink: LOL!

:cheesy: : Yeah Bvigal, that's why i posted them :oops: ... what can i say, confused for the NHC too :ggreen:
http://www.donself.com/images/confused-baby.bmp

It’s because the opinions of the forecasters, regarding development potential, differ.
On a different note, only those with dial-up connections will notice this but what I find curious is the fact that the photo of the baby loaded from the bottom up! In all my years of surfing the Net, I think this is the first time I've seen that.
0 likes   

User avatar
ROCK
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 9484
Age: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:30 am
Location: Kemah, Texas

Re: Re:

#1456 Postby ROCK » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:08 pm

Ivanhater wrote:
ROCK wrote:
gatorcane wrote:I have officially given up on Gaston and have learned to not ignore the global models which have really backed off on development. I just don't see it developing anytime soon or ever perhaps. Should see code yellow by tomorrow then probably will be dropped soon after.

Next please!



you right Gator...time to go over to the 99L thread...see you there.... :lol:


Wait, I'm a bit confused on Gator's comment about learning not to ignore the global models. Again, these are the same global models that not one saw Gaston developing in the first place, but he sure did. Why would they all of a sudden get it right the second time? They could very well be right this time, but quite a few intensity models bring this up to hurricane status and even major hurricane status. That is enough for me to be weary.



the 0z SHIPS jacks this up to a high end CAT3...GFDL up to a strong CAT1....something has got to give...
0 likes   

User avatar
bvigal
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2276
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:49 am
Location: British Virgin Islands
Contact:

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1457 Postby bvigal » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:17 pm

cycloneye wrote:bvigal, here is tonights update from San Juan.

Thanks, Luis! While they do mention it is losing steam, it still sounds like we can expect some squally weather and rain over the area. I just hope the rains aren't too bad where drainage is hampered by debris leftover from Earl!

For those interested, I've recapped the TWOs on Gaston since he was downgraded. After re-reading these, it's clear the NHC often felt the conditions either were favorable, or were expected to soon become favorable, for further development. I find no fault with these advisories. Sometimes mother nature just has the last laugh!
http://www.weathercarib.com/TWOGaston.htm
0 likes   

supercane
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 2858
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:27 pm

Re: ATL: Ex-Tropical Storm GASTON - Discussion

#1458 Postby supercane » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:26 pm

Bailey1777 wrote:if no models are latching on what is that intensity chart made up of?

No global models, which are dynamical, are redeveloping Gaston to any great degree.

The intensity chart shows these models:

SHF5 = SHIFOR5 (Statistical Hurricane Intensity Forecast). Basically the intensity version of CLIPER (CLImatology and PERsistence). "The predictor variables include: (1) Julian day; (2) current storm intensity; (3) intensity change during past 12 hr; (4) initial storm latitude and longitude; and (5) zonal (east-west) and meridional (north-south)." Because it is purely statistical, it will always trend back toward climatology.

SHIP= Statistical Hurricane Intensity Prediction Scheme (SHIPS). Combined statistical-dynamical intensity model. "The primary predictors are:
Current storm intensity;
Day of the year;
Persistence (intensity change in previous 12 hrs);
East-west compontent of storm motion;
Divergence of the wind at 200 mb;
Intensification potential (the difference between the current storm intensity and an estimate of the Maximum Possible Storm Intensity determined from the sea surface temperature);
The vertical shear of the horizontal wind in the 850-200 mb layer;
Average 200 mb temperature;
Average 850 mb vorticity;
Average 500-300 mb layer relative humidity;
Cloud top temperature as measured by the GOES satellite infrared imager channel and
Oceanic heat content inferred from altimetry measurements from polar orbiting satellites."

DSHP = Decay-SHIPS. "The DSHP is identical to the SHIPS model except, if the cyclone is forecast to cross land, the intensity is reduced accordingly."

GFDI=Previous cycle GFDL, adjusted
GHMI=Previous cycle GFDL, adjusted using a variable intensity offset correction that is a function of forecast time.

HWFI=Previous cycle HWRF, adjusted

LGEM = Logistic Growth Equation Model
"LGEM is a statistical intensity forecast model that uses the same input as SHIPS but in the framework of a simplified dynamical prediction system, instead of a multiple regression. The evolution of the intensity is determined by a logistic growth equation that constrains the solution to lie between zero and the TC's maximum potential intensity (MPI), where the MPI is estimated from an empirical relationship with sea surface temperature (SST). The forecast of the maximum wind depends on the growth rate coefficient, which is estimated from a subset of the input to the SHIPS model. Ocean heat content and other parameters derived from geostationary satellites are also incorporated into the LGEM. "

ICON = Average of LGEM, HWFI, GHMI, and DSHP

Based on these descriptions, I would disregard SHF5 since it is only statistical and has no knowledge of the synoptic situation. The pairs SHIP/DSHP and GFDI/GHMI are each variations on the same theme. And the utility of ICON depends on the strength of its individual members. Obviously then, while someone noted 7 members showing Cat 1 intensity, not all of them are independent; and since none of the intensity models have performed well of late, one has to take their results with a grain of salt.

Sources: Technical Summary of the National Hurricane Center Track and Intensity Models
An Overview of NHC Prediction Models

BTW, from NHC's 2009 verification report, "LGEM was so superior to the other models in 2009 that it bested the ICON consensus, the latter being negatively influenced by the dynamical models. Still, an evaluation over the three years 2007-9 (not shown) indicates that ICON is slightly superior to LGEM."
Last edited by supercane on Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
HURAKAN
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 46086
Age: 38
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 4:34 pm
Location: Key West, FL
Contact:

#1459 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:30 pm

Image

Maybe this will be the next TCFA!!! LOL
0 likes   

WeatherGuesser
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 2672
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:46 am

#1460 Postby WeatherGuesser » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:33 pm

This thread is hilarious. Best comedy routine since Heckle & Jeckle or Tom & Jerry.
0 likes   


Return to “2010”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest