ATL: IRENE - Remnants - Discussion

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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#281 Postby GCANE » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:23 am

700mb analysis still showing this as a wave with a NW to SE tilt.

So, I think this will continue to move west as it gets near to 60W.

The TUTT at 24N 63W should then interact with it and most likely fire off some deep convection and possibly get a surface low going as it enters the east Carib.

http://tropic.ssec.wisc.edu/real-time/a ... g8wvir.GIF

http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huwvloop.html

During that time the TUTT is forecast to dissipate and a new TUTT should form around 20N 50W.

I believe 97L will stay south of PR and the new TUTT will be positioned almost directly east of it at that time.

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/gfstc2.c ... =Animation

This is usually an ideal position to create a maximum poleward outflow channel.

This IMHO is an ideal setup for 97L to strengthen into a major TC as it enters the west Carib and if it stays south of the islands.



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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#282 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:25 am

:uarrow: Sounds right to me, GCANE.
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Re:

#283 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:26 am

KWT wrote:Yeah ,as long as mid-upper shear remains low that dry air isn't going to be too much of a problem, now if it does increase then we could have more of an issue.


That's a really good point. If there's no way to convey that dry air in, very little of it will get in.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#284 Postby Frank2 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:27 am

Perhaps, but that TUTT/ULL feature might just be what's needed for it not to form...

As you said, the earlier TUTT/ULL feature north of the islands appears to be weakening, but a larger ULL appears to be forming over the larger islands - and a disturbance that's farily weak wouldn't stand a chance with a ULL that large:

http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huwvloop.html

P.S. My guess is that the next TWO or two might be worded to reflect the ULL or TUTT feature as "conditions are only marginally favorable"...

Frank
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#285 Postby cycloneye » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:39 am

Here is todays discussion of 97L by Dr Jeff Masters:

Invest 97L likely to become a tropical storm next week, could threaten the U.S.
A tropical wave near 14°N 48°W, about 800 miles east of the Lesser Antilles Islands, is moving westward near 20 mph. This wave, designated Invest 97L by NHC yesterday, has seen a marked increase in its heavy thunderstorm activity this morning, but dry air to the north and west is slowing development. An impressive amount of large-scale spin is obvious in visible satellite loops, but the storm is at least a day away from forming a well-defined surface circulation. Ocean temperatures are about 28.5°C, about 2°C above the threshold needed to support a tropical storm, and wind shear is low, 5 - 10 knots.


The computer models have shown an unusual amount of agreement in developing 97L over the past few days, and all the ingredients seem to be in place for a tropical storm to form by Monday or Tuesday as 97L crosses the Northeast Caribbean. The atmosphere is expected to be moister over the Caribbean, wind shear will remain a low 5 - 10 knots, and sea surface temperatures will increase to near 29°C. The main impediment for development will likely be two-fold: too much dry, stable air, and proximity to land.

As seen in Figure 3, there has been an unusual amount of dry, stable air in the Atlantic this year, due to a combination of dry air from Africa, and upper-atmosphere dynamics creating large areas of sinking air that dry as they warm and approach the surface. This stable air has been largely responsible for the fact that none of our seven tropical storms so far this year has made it to hurricane strength, despite the presence of sea surface temperatures that are the 3rd warmest on record across the tropical Atlantic. Tropical Storm Emily in early August encountered problems with dry air when it crossed the Northeast Caribbean, and 97L may have similar difficulties.

Image


Vertical instability of the atmosphere during 2011 in the Caribbean (left) and tropical Atlantic between the Lesser Antilles Islands and coast of Africa (right.) The instability is plotted in °C, as a difference in temperature from near the surface to the upper atmosphere. Thunderstorms grow much more readily when vertical instability is high. Observed vertical instability (blue line) has been much lower than the climatological average from previous years (black line), due to an unusual amount of dry air in the atmosphere, inhibiting tropical storm development this year. Image credit: NOAA/CIRA.

Encounters with land will be another potential major problem for 97L. Most of the computer models take 97L near or over Puerto Rico Sunday night, then very close to or over mountainous Hispaniola Monday night through Tuesday. It is unlikely that 97L will be stronger than a 55 mph tropical storm when it encounters these islands, and passage over the islands could severely disrupt the storm. However, if 97L takes a path just south or north of Hispaniola, the potential exists for the storm to intensify into a hurricane.

There will be moderate wind shear of 10 - 20 knots to the north of the islands early next week, so a path just to the south of the Dominican Republic and Haiti would be more likely to let 97L intensify into a hurricane. A west-northwest motion is likely for 97L through Wednesday, which would bring the storm to the vicinity of Jamaica-Central Cuba-the Central Bahamas on Wednesday. On Wednesday and Thursday, the models agree that a trough of low pressure will dip down over the Eastern U.S., which is likely to turn 97L to the north. The exact timing and strength of this trough varies considerably from model to model, and will be critical in determining where and when 97L will turn to the north. The best model for predicting the timing and strength of such troughs over the past two years has been the ECMWF (European Center model), and this model currently brings 97L into the Florida Keys on Thursday night next week. You can view ECMWF forecasts on our wundermap with the model layer turned on. The European Center does not permit public display of tropical storm positions from their hurricane tracking module of their model, so we are unable to put ECMWF forecasts on our computer model forecast page that plots positions from the other major models.

Remember that a 7-day forecast by even our best model will be off by an average of over 700 miles, so it is too early to tell what part of the U.S. might be most at risk from a strike by 97L. This weekend would be a good time to go over your hurricane preparedness.

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#286 Postby fci » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:41 am

NWS Office in Miami takes notice:

"Wednesday through Thursday...long range guidance (especially GFS
and ecmwf) continue to develop a large tropical wave, currently
across the tropical Atlantic, as it moves westward across the
Caribbean and even suggest this system could be in our vicinity
during this period
. Due to large uncertainties at this time,
decided to keep the "status quo" and do not introduce any
significant changes to this portion of the forecast."


Yeah, there seems to be some consensus that this will be the first serious threat to the CONUS and certainly to The Islands. Also could put the "No Hurricanes" streak to rest.
Late nights on S2K are looking pretty likely this coming week....
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#287 Postby GCANE » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:46 am

Frank2 wrote:Perhaps, but that TUTT/ULL feature might just be what's needed for it not to form...

As you said, the earlier TUTT/ULL feature north of the islands appears to be weakening, but a larger ULL appears to be forming over the larger islands - and a disturbance that's farily weak wouldn't stand a chance with a ULL that large:

http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huwvloop.html

P.S. My guess is that the next TWO or two might be worded to reflect the ULL or TUTT feature as "conditions are only marginally favorable"...

Frank



Usually, what I have seen is that when the wave is on the SE quadrant of the TUTT, there is a period of enhanced shear.

This can in fact can set off MCS's and looks like convective flares that eventually wash out after about 8 to 12 hrs.

However, those flares act to heat up the mid troposphere creating a warm core.

Eventually the wave moves south of the TUTT and then to its SW.

At that point, the TUTT does the opposite effect and supports UL outflow.

Circulations are then in synch and shear drops for the wave.

So, now there is a warm core, low shear, and an UL outflow channel --> genesis.

The one thing 97L has going for it is the atypical tilt of its wave axis.

It is in the same direction as the easterly winds which reduce overall shear as it moves west.

So, the timing of the current TUTTs dissipation and the new TUTTs formation and where they are relative to 97L all looks good IMHO for some strong development.
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#288 Postby Aric Dunn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:49 am

Beginning to see improved low level inflow to east and SW and a little more curvature. For it to develop in the next 48hrs this must continue and a increase in convection would give it a better chance.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#289 Postby Blown Away » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:51 am

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MELBOURNE FL
330 AM EDT FRI AUG 19 2011

.DISCUSSION...

MON-FRI...A SLIGHT NORTHWARD SHIFT OF THE LOW LEVEL RIDGE AXIS
SHOULD PROVIDE A LIGHT SOUTHEAST WIND FLOW REGIME THROUGH MID
WEEK. THE GFS SHOWS A FEW RIBBONS OF DRIER AIR ADVECTING IN FROM
THE EAST SOUTHEAST. TIMING THESE FEATURES IS DIFFICULT BUT IN
GENERAL THE FLOW PATTERN WILL FAVOR THE WEST SIDE OF THE PENINSULA
FOR THE HIGHEST POPS...WITH VALUES ACROSS OUR AREA A LITTLE BELOW
NORMAL THROUGH MID WEEK.

BY LATE WEEK...WE WILL HAVE TO SEE ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF TROPICAL
SYSTEM CURRENTLY APPROACHING 50W LONGITUDE. THE GFS BRINGS IT
ACROSS THE NORTHERN CARIBBEAN WITH A DRY RIBBON ACROSS THE AREA THU
THEN MOISTENING FRI. THE 00Z ECMWF IS SIMILAR BUT CURVES IT
TOWARDS SOUTH FLORIDA FRI. IN ANY EVENT...THAT IS A LONG WAY OFF AND
WILL JUST MATCH GUIDANCE POPS
...WHICH ARE HEAVILY WEIGHTED TOWARDS
CLIMATOLOGY...30-40 PERCENT.


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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#290 Postby cycloneye » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:51 am

I say 50% at 2 PM.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#291 Postby Aric Dunn » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:53 am

cycloneye wrote:I say 50% at 2 PM.


would not be a at all surprised if they did 50 or kept it the same.. lol
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Re:

#292 Postby weatherwindow » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:54 am

[quote="RL3AO"]B. POSSIBLE LOW LEVEL INVEST AT 20/1800Z NEAR
15.0N 53.0W

Already at 50W so it will be much further west then 53 by 18z tomorrow.[/quote..extrapolating 17kts, probably more like 56.5W
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Re: Re:

#293 Postby cycloneye » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:56 am

weatherwindow wrote:
RL3AO wrote:B. POSSIBLE LOW LEVEL INVEST AT 20/1800Z NEAR
15.0N 53.0W

Already at 50W so it will be much further west then 53 by 18z tomorrow.[/quote..extrapolating 17kts, probably more like 56.5W



There is a change to that at todays TCPOD.See 97L Recon Thread.
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#294 Postby Gustywind » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:13 pm

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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#295 Postby tolakram » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:32 pm

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#296 Postby HurricaneBelle » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:54 pm

Tampa Bay AFD speaks of a "low" moving south and west of the area:

THIS RIDGE THEN BEGINS TO LIFT NORTH IN RESPONSE TO A
LOW PRESSURE CENTER MOVING WEST OVER OR NEAR CUBA WED AND THU. LATEST
GUIDANCE WOULD SUGGEST THIS LOW COULD BE IN THE GULF JUST BEYOND THE
END OF THIS PERIOD.

WITH THE SURFACE RIDGE AXIS NORTH OF THE AREA FOR THE FIRST HALF OF
THE PERIOD SOUTHEASTERLY LOW LEVEL FLOW WILL PREVAIL...ALTHOUGH WITH
A SOMEWHAT RELAXED GRADIENT ALLOWING FOR AFTERNOON SEA BREEZES. BUT
AS THE RIDGE MOVES NORTH AND THE LOW MOVES BY TO THE SOUTH THE
GRADIENT WILL TIGHTEN AS THE FLOW BECOMES MORE EASTERLY WITH ANY SEA
BREEZES PINNED CLOSE TO THE COAST
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#297 Postby northjaxpro » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:59 pm

NHC still kept it at 40% in the 2p.m. TWO
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Re:

#298 Postby cycloneye » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:00 pm

northjaxpro wrote:NHC still kept it at 40% in the 2p.m. TWO


A LARGE TROPICAL WAVE LOCATED ABOUT 800 MILES EAST OF THE LESSER
ANTILLES CONTINUES TO SHOW SIGNS OF ORGANIZATION. ENVIRONMENTAL
CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED TO GRADUALLY BECOME MORE CONDUCIVE FOR
DEVELOPMENT AS THE DISTURBANCE APPROACHES THE LESSER ANTILLES
SATURDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY. THIS SYSTEM HAS A MEDIUM CHANCE...40
PERCENT...OF BECOMING A TROPICAL CYCLONE DURING THE NEXT 48 HOURS
AS IT MOVES GENERALLY WESTWARD AT 20 MPH.
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#299 Postby northjaxpro » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:04 pm

Thanks Cycloneye for posting the full text of 97L TWO.

Not surprised they kept it at 40% for now. If the convection continues to flare up or sustaon through the rest of the day, may see them raise that percentage to 50-60% by the 8 p.m. TWO.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - Discussion

#300 Postby Frank2 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:05 pm

ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED TO GRADUALLY BECOME MORE CONDUCIVE...


Get out the garden shears - another hedge system (LOL)...

Frank
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