Question for the gun-knife crowd among us...

[streetsoldier]

For a VERY early birthday/Christmas gift, Debi procured a BEAUTIFUL reproduction of a McElroy (Columbia, SC) Confederate officer's cavalry saber for me, but it has a couple of things I need help with;

(1) How does one degrease the inside of the scabbard? This thing came with enough cosmoline to lube an M-1 Abrams, and I managed to clean up the blade, guard and exterior of the scabbard quite nicely. However, the inside is another story, as I doubt that I can get a cleaning rod into it (the curvature is, to say the least, "dramatic")... :o

(2) The original scabbard had a brass throat, mounts with rings, and drag, just like this one, BUT...the body of the scabbard should have been blued or "acid-bathed" steel, not "in the white". "Acid-bathing", or etching is out of the question (highly toxic, and only done today in Europe), so...how would one go about either (a) bluing it himself, or (b) having it blued, but at the same time protecting the brass furniture?

Your assistance is appreciated; I'd like to "finish it off" to its proper as-issued condition.

[Stephanie]

I can't help you, but I just wanted to say that must've been a nice surprise for you! Enjoy!

[streetsoldier]

Yes, it certainly was....she obtained it through a wholesale dealer at (of all places) a local flea market, while looking for some odds and ends for the new apartment! It arrived by UPS this afternoon (she "special-ordered" it! Will wonders never cease!)...

It was very reasonably priced, and according to my references, it is exact in every detail (except for the bluing), even to the 25-degree spring it should have (i.e., if you have a "fighting" sword, it should flex between 3"-to-5", and return to "true"...this one does).The grips are covered in a nice, brown leather, which is wound with a fine, gilded wire wrap, accentuating the guard and scabbard mounts very well.

[Stephanie]

Yes, it certainly was....she obtained it through a wholesale dealer at (of all places) a local flea market, while looking for some odds and ends for the new apartment! It arrived by UPS this afternoon (she "special-ordered" it! Will wonders never cease!)... :larrow:

It was very reasonably priced, and according to my references, it is exact in every detail (except for the bluing), even to the 25-degree spring it should have (i.e., if you have a "fighting" sword, it should flex between 3-5", and return to "true"...this one does).The grips are covered in a nice, brown leather, which is wound with a fine, gilded wire wrap, accentuating the guard and scabbard mounts very well.

It's probably due to the move to the new apartment that made her feel "spontaneous". That's great! It sounds like you received quite a gem!

[streetsoldier]

BTW, I had thought about using masking tape and a black spray lacquer, but I'm not sure it will "hold" well...any thoughts on this?

[coriolis]

I'll brainstorm a few ideas for de-greasing the scabbard. Maybe they would work, or maybe they'll inspire you to something similiar:
1. Could you soak the whole thing in a solvent like gasoline? Or is there leather and stuff that wouldn't like that?
2. Make a copy of the sword out of cardboard or something and push it into the scabbard to absorb the grease. Repeat as necessary.
3. Get a wire coathanger straighten it all out, make a little loop in one end and weave with tissue. Use it like a big Q-Tip to wipe out the scabbard.
4. Heat it in the oven until the grease "melts" and runs out.
5. Put the sword in, take it out, wipe it off. Repeat about 100 times.

As for blue-ing, I did a quick google search and came up with the following:

http://www.thecrossbowmansden.com/blueing.html
this looks like a do-it-yourself recipie

and
http://www.dunhamssports.com/family/ind ... yId=876026

this one has "blueing in a bottle" and seems pretty slick, if it works as advertised.

I'm sure there's others. Just search "blueing steel"

There's probably gunsmiths out there that can do it or give advice.

Good Luck,
Let us know how you make out.

[streetsoldier]

Nice ideas, coriolis!

As to the wire...I'd need at least a 40" length of it, plus whatever I'd require to make a loop for the terry patches I'd use to clean (hot water/Dawn solution), swab (hot water-dipped only) and dry (plain dry terry patches). The blade alone is 34" long, about 1 1/4" wide and curved.
I have enough old towels for that.

Acetone WOULD be a better degreaser, but try finding it; thanks to some Federal bureaucracy or other, even acetone nail polish remover is next to impossible to get.

The main problem is that the bluing solution will also darken brass to a dull black-brownish hue; cleaning the brass, using my favorite, BRASSO, will then also take the bluing away from the steel...the two are well fused/welded together on the scabbard, and delineation is difficult (especially on the drag, which is extra-heavy brass; U.S. Model of 1860 "Ames" saber scabbards...yes, the same company that now makes garden tools... used a thinner steel drag).

One thing I didn't mention is that, this being high-carbon steel, I never touch it with bare hands (if you saw any originals, you'd see how susceptible they are to oils, moisture, etc.; most are in miserable, black, pitted condition). I have a pair of light grey C.S. goatskin gauntlets which, sometimes in addition to a towel, is the only way I handle it; which is why I need the "Ren-Wax".

I'll think this through, and let you know what I come up with.

[GalvestonDuck]

I can vouch that the bluing in a bottle does work well. I've used it on firearms. Keeping it separate from the brass will be another story though.

Hmmmm....thinking about it.

[coriolis]

Duck, from your body of posts it sounds as though you have "seen it all"

Me, I have to look it all up!

[GalvestonDuck]

Duck, from your body of posts it sounds as though you have "seen it all"

Me, I have to look it all up!

Not really...just been in a variety of jobs, including the ER. I once worked for a guy who owned pawn shops, an electric/heating/AC/chimney sweep/plumbing company, and real estate. I worked in the real estate office, but filled in and answered phones at the other offices sometimes. Had some idiot walk into the pawn shop one day with a loaded gun to sell. He pointed it at me as he was popping out the clip. I had to duck quickly and run below and around the counter to go deal with him. Didn't like being in the line of fire. Had another guy come in, obviously intoxicated, with a laceration to his nose. He wanted to buy a gun and when I reminded him of the waiting period, he decided then that he wanted a knife. I didn't sell him either. I knew what he was headed for.

I look up what I can. Yahoo, Snopes, IMDB, Ebay, and the news sites are my favorite resources.

[streetsoldier]

Well, folks, I went to a local gunshop and spoke with the gunsmith...seems he'd heard about this problem before!

He suggested something called "stove-black", which can be applied by spraying; but he also knows a "War Between the States" aficionado that he will call, and get back to me. Apparently, this guy "reconditioned" a scabbard of his own; exactly WHAT he did, I have no idea at this time.

As to degreasing, he said I'd need a 48" tank full of boiling water to "do it right"; maybe I can use the bathtub when Debi isn't home(?).

He did say that hot-bluing salts would EAT brass, which is an alloy of copper; cold blue would work, but he didn't think there was a way to mask the brass furniture without affecting it ("dull green" is what he said I could expect).

[GalvestonDuck]

http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/oiling.html

Here's some interesting info (although it's in reference to Japanese swords, I'm sure it can be of some help). They warn against using cosmoline:

For Japanese swords, antiques, etc. it is advisable to avoid Tuff Cloth, waxes, silicone-based gel, vaseline, petrolium gelly, Cosmoline, etc. Some of these contain chemicals that attack blade steel. If not, avoid them for the reason that they are more work to remove and can trap moisture. Once you coat up a blade with the aforementioned and sheath the sword, the scabbard interior will be very hard to clean.

Still trying to find other info on scabbard care.

[streetsoldier]

Japanese swords have very specific maintenance problems, GD; the blades are "laminated", with a "soft" core, medium-hard sides, and hard (RC 59-61) spine and edges. The care with which one makes a daisho (the combination of long sword katana, short sword wakizashi and knife tanto) involves folding the steel 500 times or more. Such blades require very special handling.

The scabbards are made of wood, which is then either covered in rayskin, sharkskin or heavily lacquered. Wood will definitely retain any substance introduced into it, especially within a closed surface area...steel of the temper my scabbard has will react well to cleaning, if the proper degreasing compounds or chemicals can be found and inserted, then swabbed out.

[streetsoldier]

OK, this was in response to a call I made from the makers...their "armorer-in-chief" told me to remove all clear lacquer and crud from the outside with a furniture finish remover, then to use masking tape on the brass, carefully cutting it away.

Then, get some "cold blue" solution and be LIGHT with the stuff, following the directions and repeating the process until the desired shade is obtained. After that, he said either Renaissance Wax or a clear lacquer may be applied.

To degrease the interior, he suggested a "snake" cleaning rod with oversize patches soaked in WD-40 to degunk and protect it...this will eliminate the crud inside, and I have to repeat the swabbing every 6 months or so. This way, I can store the sabre in the scabbard without needing a dessicant bag (unless I store the two separately within a rifle case).