Texas Winter 2017-2018

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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3981 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:08 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:I read something about strong convection in the Indian ocean leading to ridge over Alaska in extended. That's why I mentioned about stj being cut off since we got the cold air in place right now. A good SSW event could do the trick if it happens. Ntxw, how long can this cold pattern last? Any ideas?


The strongest tropical convection has been over the eastern Indian Ocean and far Western Pacific. This has fed into a trough near Kamchatka in the vicinity of Sea of Okhotsk. This is important to understand. Bubba and orangeblood in past pages have done a fantastic job laying out the permanent players so far this winter. The MJO interference has prevented the normal Nina torches as even help established the +PNA. The SST configuration (in tandem with the persistent Sea of Okhotsk cyclogenesis) have created a wave train and that propped up the -EPO downstream.This is the established winter pattern, and it's shown it can get cold easily with it in North America. So when you see guidance relax from it, it's probably only short term before it will go right back to where forcing favors it. In most winters you tend to know early on based on these background forcings if a warm or cold tendencies once the wavelengths get longer. The pattern that created the snow in early December is important as it was insight to this favor-ability.

In terms of storms the +PNA has not been kind to the northern half of Texas wintry precip wise. The southern half of the state benefits from this much more as their climo is more in line with the gulf coast regions. +PNA favors positive tilt troughs that when tapped by the gulf is better for them. For the northern half of the state we need the PNA to relax and allow S/Ws to dig into the west. Models have tried to do this several times but it always ends up more east and PNA dominant. A second way is for the AO and NAO to clog up the pattern but they are in a semi quasi positive state for years.

Make no doubt about it, this is no 2011-2012 redux. More in line with 2000-2001 and 2013-2014 when looking at the NPAC
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3982 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:17 pm

Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:I read something about strong convection in the Indian ocean leading to ridge over Alaska in extended. That's why I mentioned about stj being cut off since we got the cold air in place right now. A good SSW event could do the trick if it happens. Ntxw, how long can this cold pattern last? Any ideas?


The strongest tropical convection has been over the eastern Indian Ocean and far Western Pacific. This has fed into a trough near Kamchatka in the vicinity of Sea of Okhotsk. This is important to understand. Bubba and orangeblood in past pages have done a fantastic job laying out the permanent players so far this winter. The MJO interference has prevented the normal Nina torches as even help established the +PNA. The SST configuration (in tandem with the persistent Sea of Okhotsk cyclogenesis) have created a wave train and that propped up the -EPO downstream.This is the established winter pattern, and it's shown it can get cold easily with it in North America. So when you see guidance relax from it, it's probably only short term before it will go right back to where forcing favors it. In most winters you tend to know early on based on these background forcings if a warm or cold tendencies once the wavelengths get longer. The pattern that created the snow in early December is important as it was insight to this favor-ability.

In terms of storms the +PNA has not been kind to the northern half of Texas wintry precip wise. The southern half of the state benefits from this much more as their climo is more in line with the gulf coast regions. +PNA favors positive tilt troughs that when tapped by the gulf is better for them. For the northern half of the state we need the PNA to relax and allow S/Ws to dig into the west. Models have tried to do this several times but it always ends up more east and PNA dominant. A second way is for the AO and NAO to clog up the pattern but they are in a semi quasi positive state for years.

Make no doubt about it, this is no 2011-2012 redux. More in line with 2000-2001 and 2013-2014 when looking at the NPAC


Thanks for analysis. One more thing, do you think mjo will make it to the warm phases which are 4-6 or does that not look likely? Me personally wants to see a not so strong pna so the southern plains can get in on our opportunity at winter storms possibly.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3983 Postby ThunderSleetDreams » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:18 pm

NAM has me much colder than forecasted thru Sunday.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3984 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:20 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:Thanks for analysis. One more thing, do you think mjo will make it to the warm phases which are 4-6 or does that not look likely? Me personally wants to see a not so strong pna so the southern plains can get in on our opportunity at winter storms possibly.


I don't think so. It's hard to get forcing that far east with a La Nina. Fight it or not, it's still a key player
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3985 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:Thanks for analysis. One more thing, do you think mjo will make it to the warm phases which are 4-6 or does that not look likely? Me personally wants to see a not so strong pna so the southern plains can get in on our opportunity at winter storms possibly.


I don't think so. It's hard to get forcing that far east with a La Nina. Fight it or not, it's still a key player


I thought it was easier to get in the warm phases that give us warmer weather with a niña and opposite in colder phases? If and when pna will relax, maybe we will have our opportunity for excitement.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3986 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:27 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:Thanks for analysis. One more thing, do you think mjo will make it to the warm phases which are 4-6 or does that not look likely? Me personally wants to see a not so strong pna so the southern plains can get in on our opportunity at winter storms possibly.


I don't think so. It's hard to get forcing that far east with a La Nina. Fight it or not, it's still a key player


I thought it was easier to get in the warm phases that give us warmer weather with a niña and opposite in colder phases? If and when pna will relax, maybe we will have our opportunity for excitement.


You mean the background forcing, having the convection over Indonesia in a typical NIna? That would favor Alaskan trough. MJO is a finicky thing, it can be confusing about an active MJO vs background state. The MJO is most prevalent during neutral winters.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3987 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:32 pm

Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
I don't think so. It's hard to get forcing that far east with a La Nina. Fight it or not, it's still a key player


I thought it was easier to get in the warm phases that give us warmer weather with a niña and opposite in colder phases? If and when pna will relax, maybe we will have our opportunity for excitement.


You mean the background forcing, having the convection over Indonesia in a typical NIna? That would favor Alaskan trough. MJO is a finicky thing, it can be confusing about an active MJO vs background state. The MJO is most prevalent during neutral winters.

Yes, the background state. Is the background state favoring the -epo and -wpo predominantly this winter? I guess kinda like 13-14 winter. I thought once mjo gets in phases 4-6, it will warm up. Do that look less likely now? Is the east based niña helping with certain forcing in certain areas than typical one?
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3988 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:
I thought it was easier to get in the warm phases that give us warmer weather with a niña and opposite in colder phases? If and when pna will relax, maybe we will have our opportunity for excitement.


You mean the background forcing, having the convection over Indonesia in a typical NIna? That would favor Alaskan trough. MJO is a finicky thing, it can be confusing about an active MJO vs background state. The MJO is most prevalent during neutral winters.

Yes, the background state. Is the background state favoring the -epo and -wpo predominantly this winter? I guess kinda like 13-14 winter. I thought once mjo gets in phases 4-6, it will warm up. Do that look less likely now?


-EPO is the dominant signal so far this winter. Sea of Okhotsk low->Eastern Pacific Ridge and locked in place by the Hawaiian trough. When ridge over low that's a rex block.

You can trace back the -EPO in late October. There was a cold snap around Halloween. Our warmth has been when the -EPO relaxed late November and mid December

Code: Select all

2017 10 25  -31.42
2017 10 26 -122.24
2017 10 27 -176.02
2017 10 28 -213.61
2017 10 29 -245.02
2017 10 30 -281.55
2017 10 31 -290.12
2017 11 01 -259.24
2017 11 02 -293.03
2017 11 03 -277.62
2017 11 04 -229.21
2017 11 05 -182.02
2017 11 06 -161.97
2017 11 07 -148.92
2017 11 08 -134.25
2017 11 09  -90.63
2017 11 10  -37.71
2017 11 11  -86.08
2017 11 12 -162.06
2017 11 13 -137.31
2017 11 14 -104.48
2017 11 15 -120.90
2017 11 16  -74.84
2017 11 17  -54.72
2017 11 18  -97.84
2017 11 19  -20.22
2017 11 20    8.91
2017 11 21  -99.95
2017 11 22  -89.25
2017 11 23   49.20
2017 11 24   85.42
2017 11 25  -46.58
2017 11 26   15.98
2017 11 27  170.81
2017 11 28  140.16
2017 11 29  147.99
2017 11 30  111.52
2017 12 01   33.22
2017 12 02  -31.69
2017 12 03  -38.03
2017 12 04  -61.86
2017 12 05 -171.99
2017 12 06 -255.27
2017 12 07 -219.64
2017 12 08 -158.09
2017 12 09 -154.26
2017 12 10 -175.38
2017 12 11 -149.72
2017 12 12 -138.20
2017 12 13 -213.94
2017 12 14 -175.18
2017 12 15  -22.10
2017 12 16   77.25
2017 12 17  113.18
2017 12 18   32.27
2017 12 19  -53.05
2017 12 20 -108.16
2017 12 21 -158.50
2017 12 22 -183.83
2017 12 23 -181.02
2017 12 24 -135.23
2017 12 25 -136.92
2017 12 26 -142.95
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3989 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:42 pm

Ntxw wrote:
hamburgerman7070 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:
You mean the background forcing, having the convection over Indonesia in a typical NIna? That would favor Alaskan trough. MJO is a finicky thing, it can be confusing about an active MJO vs background state. The MJO is most prevalent during neutral winters.

Yes, the background state. Is the background state favoring the -epo and -wpo predominantly this winter? I guess kinda like 13-14 winter. I thought once mjo gets in phases 4-6, it will warm up. Do that look less likely now?


-EPO is the dominant signal so far this winter. Sea of Okhotsk low->Eastern Pacific Ridge and locked in place by the Hawaiian trough. When ridge over low that's a rex block.

You can trace back the -EPO in late October. There was a cold snap around Halloween. Our warmth has been when the -EPO relaxed late November and mid December

Code: Select all

2017 10 25  -31.42
2017 10 26 -122.24
2017 10 27 -176.02
2017 10 28 -213.61
2017 10 29 -245.02
2017 10 30 -281.55
2017 10 31 -290.12
2017 11 01 -259.24
2017 11 02 -293.03
2017 11 03 -277.62
2017 11 04 -229.21
2017 11 05 -182.02
2017 11 06 -161.97
2017 11 07 -148.92
2017 11 08 -134.25
2017 11 09  -90.63
2017 11 10  -37.71
2017 11 11  -86.08
2017 11 12 -162.06
2017 11 13 -137.31
2017 11 14 -104.48
2017 11 15 -120.90
2017 11 16  -74.84
2017 11 17  -54.72
2017 11 18  -97.84
2017 11 19  -20.22
2017 11 20    8.91
2017 11 21  -99.95
2017 11 22  -89.25
2017 11 23   49.20
2017 11 24   85.42
2017 11 25  -46.58
2017 11 26   15.98
2017 11 27  170.81
2017 11 28  140.16
2017 11 29  147.99
2017 11 30  111.52
2017 12 01   33.22
2017 12 02  -31.69
2017 12 03  -38.03
2017 12 04  -61.86
2017 12 05 -171.99
2017 12 06 -255.27
2017 12 07 -219.64
2017 12 08 -158.09
2017 12 09 -154.26
2017 12 10 -175.38
2017 12 11 -149.72
2017 12 12 -138.20
2017 12 13 -213.94
2017 12 14 -175.18
2017 12 15  -22.10
2017 12 16   77.25
2017 12 17  113.18
2017 12 18   32.27
2017 12 19  -53.05
2017 12 20 -108.16
2017 12 21 -158.50
2017 12 22 -183.83
2017 12 23 -181.02
2017 12 24 -135.23
2017 12 25 -136.92
2017 12 26 -142.95


For our better opportunity at a stormier pattern while its still cold, we want a relax in the pna instead of it positive? Correct ntxw? I'm wondering the niña being east based has anything to do with it....
Last edited by hamburgerman7070 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3990 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:42 pm

18z NAM was more aggressive with snow in North Texas Sat evening. 0z is running lets see what it does. It is much more aggressive with the cold than the two big globals

Image
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3991 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:43 pm

hamburgerman7070 wrote:
Ntxw wrote:For our better opportunity at a stormier pattern while its still cold, we want a relax in the pna instead of it positive? Correct ntxw?


Correct. Or at least retrograde it slight near or off the west coast then have it go positive to kick out the storm. But starting with purely +PNA is lots of NW flow
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3992 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:53 pm

Another interesting factoid, we have robbed Asia of it's cold. Said pattern has kept eastern North America the only true cold air in the NHEM. Torching everywhere else

Image
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3993 Postby Rgv20 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:54 pm

Portastorm wrote:Heh ... there’s a 9-degree difference between the 18z NAM and GFS for Austin at midnight NYE. Former has us at 30. Latter at 39! :lol:

Gotta love these model runs.


Forecast for Edinburg at midnight NYE......how about 24-degree difference? :lol:

18zGFS=66

18zNAM=42
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3994 Postby ronyan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:58 pm

Rgv20 wrote:
Portastorm wrote:Heh ... there’s a 9-degree difference between the 18z NAM and GFS for Austin at midnight NYE. Former has us at 30. Latter at 39! :lol:

Gotta love these model runs.


Forecast for Edinburg at midnight NYE......how about 24-degree difference? :lol:

18zGFS=66

18zNAM=42


That seems like a difference of front speed. Has the front reached that location on the GFS?
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3995 Postby hamburgerman7070 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:06 pm

Ntxw, I want the cold on our side of the globe lol. We definitely can't get ice or snow without cold weather. Its just been difficult to get a pattern favorable for winter storms or even close so car. BTW, I'm from ne Arkansas.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3996 Postby toto » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:14 pm

.

My brother just emailed me this weird map.

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tena ... 60&o=f&l=f

.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3997 Postby Rgv20 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:19 pm

ronyan wrote:
Rgv20 wrote:
Portastorm wrote:Heh ... there’s a 9-degree difference between the 18z NAM and GFS for Austin at midnight NYE. Former has us at 30. Latter at 39! :lol:

Gotta love these model runs.


Forecast for Edinburg at midnight NYE......how about 24-degree difference? :lol:

18zGFS=66

18zNAM=42


That seems like a difference of front speed. Has the front reached that location on the GFS?


GFS is about 6 hours slower but it doesn't get down to 42 until Tuesday Morning :lol:
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3998 Postby toto » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:23 pm

Rgv20 wrote:
Portastorm wrote:

Heh ... there’s a 9-degree difference between the 18z NAM and GFS for Austin at midnight NYE. Former has us at 30. Latter at 39! :lol:

Gotta love these model runs.


Forecast for Edinburg at midnight NYE......how about 24-degree difference? :lol:

18zGFS=66

18zNAM=42




I'll take either temperature. I was daydreaming yesterday about moving to the Rio Grande Valley area.

.
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#3999 Postby Rgv20 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:32 pm

:uarrow: Winters are nice down here, we get quite a few days of "London in the Valley" Cloudy Drizzle with temperatures in the 40s, that is our winter weather :lol:

Summers are brutal tho so beware :sun:
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Re: Texas Winter 2017-2018

#4000 Postby Ntxw » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:33 pm

0z NAM has snow showers along the leading edge behind the front in NTX Sat evening.

Image

Surface temps near freezing and falling, 850s not quite 0C but also falling
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