ATL: KAREN - Remnants - Discussion

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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#161 Postby Craters » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:41 pm

GCANE wrote:Absolutely.
Intensity forecasting is more on a much finer spatial resolution than what the global models are setup to do.
Hot towers fire off, dry line convetion, outflow boundarys, tilted vorts, tropopause heightening, etc are just too fine scale for the capability of global models.
I think they should create a sub program in the globals where they switch on much finer spatial and time resolution around a potential TC when it is identified. I am sure this will require more processing power but could be achieved with parallel processing.


This certainly makes sense and, from what I understand, such "rezoning" is an established practice in numerical modeling. I'd wonder, though, about the density of input data. Would there be enough data (not calculated values, but real data) to initialize the finer grid with relevant and timely information? Increasing the resolution by a factor of two requires four times as many grid points in a two-dimensional model. In 3D models like these, that would mean eight times as many points. (Hence, no doubt, your comment about the processing power, GCANE.) I guess that would be my main question: would there be enough data to justify or warrant the increase in computational complexity? My guess would be that extrapolating a coarse data field to finer scales wouldn't be good enough, but I certainly could be wrong.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#162 Postby LarryWx » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:42 pm

Not to scare far SE FL since Karen may remain weak or even dissipate or recurve, but I did find two near worst case scenario (MH hits) potential analogs for late Sep/early Oct:

1941: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1941.png
1929: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1929.png
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#163 Postby Blown Away » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:54 pm

LarryWx wrote:Not to scare far SE FL since Karen may remain weak or even dissipate or recurve, but I did find two near worst case scenario (MH hits) potential analogs for late Sep/early Oct:

1941: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1941.png
1929: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1929.png


Those are real good analogs for time of year, strength, and track... Let’s hope it doesn’t happen.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#164 Postby chaser1 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:58 pm

LarryWx wrote:Not to scare far SE FL since Karen may remain weak or even dissipate or recurve, but I did find two near worst case scenario (MH hits) potential analogs for late Sep/early Oct:

1941: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1941.png
1929: https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tracks/tracks-at-1929.png


Very Interesting stuff Larry. Interestingly, both seasons displayed below normal in overall activity. More interestingly here is that both analogue years were season's that all (except one) storm tracks occurred above 20N. One other curious note..... other then the June storm during '29, both seasons essentially began in September. From the looks of Storm #2 during 1929, that track kind of suggests a strong but small mid level ridge of high pressure that must have strengthened and build slightly east directly over and north of that storm at the time. Seems like that storm was practically embedded within and on the south side of that high given it's slow motion and eventual track toward the SW prior to approaching the Keys. I still doubt it'll occur but it certainly could make for a potential similar analogue track outcome.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#165 Postby SFLcane » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:06 pm

NHC states more favorable conditions once in the SW Atlantic at 5pm hmmm. No what I see based on this afternoons models abvoiously can change. IF and that’s a big IF some sort of circulation survives after exciting the Caribbean I guess it could get interesting with strong ridging over head.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#166 Postby psyclone » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:22 pm

SFLcane wrote:NHC states more favorable conditions once in the SW Atlantic at 5pm hmmm. No what I see based on this afternoons models abvoiously can change. IF and that’s a big IF some sort of circulation survives after exciting the Caribbean I guess it could get interesting with strong ridging over head.


It's kind of remarkable how similar it is to Dorian...in that if it survives the Caribbean there could be favorable conditions north of the Greater Antilles. Kind of a binary situation yet again. Notice on the wind probability maps how quickly even the low end TS wind probs drop off... that is a big tell about how tenuous the situation is WRT the system's near term survival.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#167 Postby hurricanes1234 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:24 pm

I can attest to the flooding in Trinidad and Tobago. We've been seeing pictures and videos all over the news and even more have been circulating on WhatsApp. Tobago seems to have been worse hit than Trinidad. The Minister of National Security announced that schools will be closed tomorrow.

In terms of the current weather conditions, the rain and wind have subsided completely and all that remains in the sky is grey haze from the thick cirrus clouds left behind. But given the sprawling nature of the system, whether it opens back into a wave or remains a tropical cyclone, I wouldn't be surprised to see more rain in T&T between today and tomorrow. People should definitely not let their guards down. In fact, the alert itself continues until tomorrow night. So we're not out of the woods just yet down here.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#168 Postby Emmett_Brown » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:26 pm

Funny thing is, if 99L had not been upgraded this morning, we probably all would have been more bullish on its ultimate future since conditions to the north of GA are going to be better. If the storm is downgraded now or opens up into a wave, many will doubt if it can regenerate. Human nature.
Last edited by Emmett_Brown on Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#169 Postby TheStormExpert » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:28 pm

psyclone wrote:
SFLcane wrote:NHC states more favorable conditions once in the SW Atlantic at 5pm hmmm. No what I see based on this afternoons models abvoiously can change. IF and that’s a big IF some sort of circulation survives after exciting the Caribbean I guess it could get interesting with strong ridging over head.


It's kind of remarkable how similar it is to Dorian...in that if it survives the Caribbean there could be favorable conditions north of the Greater Antilles. Kind of a binary situation yet again. Notice on the wind probability maps how quickly even the low end TS wind probs drop off... that is a big tell about how tenuous the situation is WRT the system's near term survival.

This season reminds me of 2004 in a sense with Frances, then Jeanne taking similar tracks into E-Central FL coastline just three weeks apart.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#170 Postby tropicwatch » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:50 pm

Latest advisory puts movement at 15mph, I think they will probably bring that down at next advisory based on HH center fixes.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#171 Postby USVIKimmie » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:55 pm

panamatropicwatch wrote:Latest advisory puts movement at 15mph, I think they will probably bring that down at next advisory based on HH center fixes.


Showed 13mph, not 15.

However... I’ve seen 9kts and 11kts for forward movement :double:
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#172 Postby StormPyrate » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:57 pm

Dorian made the jump from dying storm to a contender after having a major shift of the center.
As disorganized as this is, what is the likelihood that could happen again. Karen almost die, unstack and then restack in a more conducive area only to grow into the monster it became?
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#173 Postby wxman57 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:03 pm

Doesn't appear as though the plane is finding anything to indicate Karen is a TS this afternoon. Convection is diminishing and is separated farther from the exposed center. Look for a downgrade soon. Long-range track is quite uncertain. I notice that the various ensembles spread is from the Bay of Campeche to Portugal. That pretty much covers it...
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#174 Postby Abdullah » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:15 pm

wxman57 wrote:Doesn't appear as though the plane is finding anything to indicate Karen is a TS this afternoon. Convection is diminishing and is separated farther from the exposed center. Look for a downgrade soon. Long-range track is quite uncertain. I notice that the various ensembles spread is from the Bay of Campeche to Portugal. That pretty much covers it...


The plane found some 40-50 knot winds and seems to be dropping in pressure from what I see, but I think the issue, as you say, is whether it classifies as tropical anymore. Can it be SubTropical?
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#175 Postby Hurricaneman » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:20 pm

Abdullah wrote:
wxman57 wrote:Doesn't appear as though the plane is finding anything to indicate Karen is a TS this afternoon. Convection is diminishing and is separated farther from the exposed center. Look for a downgrade soon. Long-range track is quite uncertain. I notice that the various ensembles spread is from the Bay of Campeche to Portugal. That pretty much covers it...


The plane found some 40-50 knot winds and seems to be dropping in pressure from what I see, but I think the issue, as you say, is whether it classifies as tropical anymore. Can it be SubTropical?
not there this time of year, 100% tropical
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#176 Postby LarryWx » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:23 pm

On the N American view, I was just noticing the model trend to a much weaker E US ridge for 9/28 though stronger WAR. On the GFS, check out the 168 hr of 0Z vs 162 hr of 6Z vs 156 hr of 12Z vs 150 hr of 18Z. That's a pretty drastic trend that doesn't look like it has ended. If this trend keeps up, what are the implications for Karen?
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#177 Postby wxman57 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:28 pm

Abdullah wrote:
wxman57 wrote:Doesn't appear as though the plane is finding anything to indicate Karen is a TS this afternoon. Convection is diminishing and is separated farther from the exposed center. Look for a downgrade soon. Long-range track is quite uncertain. I notice that the various ensembles spread is from the Bay of Campeche to Portugal. That pretty much covers it...


The plane found some 40-50 knot winds and seems to be dropping in pressure from what I see, but I think the issue, as you say, is whether it classifies as tropical anymore. Can it be SubTropical?


You cannot trust SFMR winds that are well above flight-level winds. No, it's not subtropical. It looks like a poorly-organized, sheared depression.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#178 Postby abajan » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:14 pm

msbee wrote:
arizona_sooner wrote:My wife is from Trinidad and Tobago and she got plenty pics and videos from friends and family on the islands this morning. Flooding and heavy rain plus it's a little windy. Definitely outside the norm for the weather down there. I'm unhappy that we missed it!

the pics and videos I m seeing look quite bad. There are lots of flash floods and rivers overflowing. Downtown Scarborough in Tobago is very flooded out

I suspect much of the flooding Trinidad experiences is due to the soil type there. Granted, they did get quite a lot of rain from Karen, but it just seems to flood too easily there. They've had scores of flood events over the last few years.
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#179 Postby Emmett_Brown » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:32 pm

The last recon fix seems to indicate that the center jumped to the SW, toward the convection on the last pass?
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Re: ATL: KAREN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#180 Postby tropicwatch » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:52 pm

Wind shear appears to have lightened up.
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