2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#341 Postby Iceresistance » Wed May 05, 2021 10:22 am

Kingarabian wrote:
Iceresistance wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:May Euro seasonal:
MSLP for September:
https://i.postimg.cc/ncvHzz4L/image.png

ASO rainfall:
https://i.postimg.cc/xTHdzg2n/image.png


The Euro wants a full-blown El Niño by September . . .

That's not an El Nino look. The parameter I posted is for MSLP. Bright reds mean higher pressure. The Euro has high pressures compared to normal over the EPAC.

I thought it was the SSTs, I've should have taken a closer look . . . :P

The Higher the Pressure, the harder it is for Tropical Cyclones to form?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#342 Postby InfernoFlameCat » Wed May 05, 2021 10:28 am

Iceresistance wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:
Iceresistance wrote:
The Euro wants a full-blown El Niño by September . . .

That's not an El Nino look. The parameter I posted is for MSLP. Bright reds mean higher pressure. The Euro has high pressures compared to normal over the EPAC.

I thought it was the SSTs, I've should have taken a closer look . . . :P

The Higher the Pressure, the harder it is for Tropical Cyclones to form?

Generally speaking, yes because higher pressure means stronger shear around it as air is being pushed out faster the higher up the pressure is but they cannot create wind shear alone. They more act like rocks in the river of moisture than a dam. But it is only a minor factor in the mess that hurricanes arise from.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#343 Postby CyclonicFury » Wed May 05, 2021 10:43 am

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#344 Postby DorkyMcDorkface » Wed May 05, 2021 10:57 am


Given that this is what it is displaying activity-wise I'm inclined to believe it is indeed some sort of dry bias within the model:
Image
Image
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#345 Postby DorkyMcDorkface » Wed May 05, 2021 4:37 pm

46-day Euro is showing the MJO returning to phases 8/1 by the beginning of June, coinciding perfectly with the start of the hurricane season. Worth watching to see how this plays out in the long run as this certainly would open the door for potential development to kick off the season.

Image
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#346 Postby NotSparta » Wed May 05, 2021 5:04 pm

Kingarabian wrote:May Euro seasonal:
MSLP for September:
https://i.postimg.cc/ncvHzz4L/image.png

ASO rainfall:
https://i.postimg.cc/xTHdzg2n/image.png


Has the Euro had an update or something? Usually if it shows -ENSO it's a sign that La Niña is very likely, but there has been some uncertainty this season. Either that or perhaps we're overstating the chance of El Niño it seems
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#347 Postby Kingarabian » Wed May 05, 2021 6:45 pm

NotSparta wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:May Euro seasonal:
MSLP for September:
https://i.postimg.cc/ncvHzz4L/image.png

ASO rainfall:
https://i.postimg.cc/xTHdzg2n/image.png


Has the Euro had an update or something? Usually if it shows -ENSO it's a sign that La Niña is very likely, but there has been some uncertainty this season. Either that or perhaps we're overstating the chance of El Niño it seems

Seems like it's getting confused. It's factoring the changes going on over the Pacific and the possibility of warm-neutral ENSO, and also a possible favorable Atlantic SST configuration as well as an active WAM. Or maybe the MSLP parameter charts should be discontinued by the ECMWF.
Last edited by Kingarabian on Wed May 05, 2021 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#348 Postby aspen » Wed May 05, 2021 7:21 pm

Kingarabian wrote:
NotSparta wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:May Euro seasonal:
MSLP for September:
https://i.postimg.cc/ncvHzz4L/image.png

ASO rainfall:
https://i.postimg.cc/xTHdzg2n/image.png


Has the Euro had an update or something? Usually if it shows -ENSO it's a sign that La Niña is very likely, but there has been some uncertainty this season. Either that or perhaps we're overstating the chance of El Niño it seems

Seems like it's getting confused. It's factoring the changes going on over the Pacific and the possibility of warm-neutral ENSO, and also a possible favorable Atlantic SST configuration as well as an active WAM. Or maybe the MSLP paremeter charts should be discontinued by the ECMWF.

Who or what isn’t confused? 2021 has proven to be much more of a pain to predict than 2020. At least with 2020, it was moderately clear that ENSO probably wouldn’t be warmer than true neutral, and a La Niña was likely. Now, we’re almost through the SPB but with very conflicting signs for activity between a possible +ENSO and an active WAM.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#349 Postby Shell Mound » Thu May 06, 2021 2:07 am

Image

SST gradients have been highlighted to better depict the -AMO and the ENSO pattern. The overall look is unfavourable for the Caribbean and MDR.

 https://twitter.com/cyclonicwx/status/1390068372025511939




With east-based warm neutral ENSO and an -AMO, the pattern would not just hinder the deep tropics, but also likely result in more OTS tracks.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#350 Postby ClarCari » Thu May 06, 2021 3:40 am

Shell Mound wrote:https://i.postimg.cc/dQNrKpMb/ECENSO.png

SST gradients have been highlighted to better depict the -AMO and the ENSO pattern. The overall look is unfavourable for the Caribbean and MDR.

https://twitter.com/cyclonicwx/status/1390068372025511939

With east-based warm neutral ENSO and an -AMO, the pattern would not just hinder the deep tropics, but also likely result in more OTS tracks.

The evidence for a +ENSO is still not there.

There is still no evidence for a east based warm ENSO, and I think the drier Caribbean has more to do with the Bermuda High tracking MDR storms more north this upcoming season than this preposterous idea that the ENSO will be warm neutral for 2021 which is slim to none based on all available data.

I think 2003 may be a serious analogy, (which ironically used List 1 of names like this year) where MDR activity faaarrr surpassed Caribbean activity due to how storms like Fabian and Isabel were strong farther north in the MDR and never even touched the Caribbean, in comparison to the one Caribbean “long tracker” which was Claudette that was a TS most of it’s life. I just think that named activity will surpass 2003 because, since at least 2018 we’ve seen overall named TS activity increase, hence why chances of exhausting the normal naming list for 2021 list isn’t as low as normal.

2017 Caribbean season was a bum but MDR and tropical activity as well as subtropical activity well surpassed prior expectations due to the tracks of the storms even with a less favorable ENSO at this point in the year as 2017.

They day the 2021 ENSO goes warm for the heart of 2021 ATL Hurricane season
is the day when pigs fly and looking out my window........yeah I love pigs with all my heart but the haven’t grown their wings yet.
Last edited by ClarCari on Thu May 06, 2021 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#351 Postby Shell Mound » Thu May 06, 2021 4:06 am

ClarCari wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:https://i.postimg.cc/dQNrKpMb/ECENSO.png

SST gradients have been highlighted to better depict the -AMO and the ENSO pattern. The overall look is unfavourable for the Caribbean and MDR.

https://twitter.com/cyclonicwx/status/1390068372025511939

With east-based warm neutral ENSO and an -AMO, the pattern would not just hinder the deep tropics, but also likely result in more OTS tracks.

...

Warm neutral ENSO is not the same as warm ENSO (El Niño). The main point is that the EC indicates that the warmest SST in the equatorial Pacific will be in Niño 1+2 during ASO 2021. It also indicates the possibility of cooler-than-average SST in the MDR and Caribbean, along with warmer-than-average SST in the Gulf of Guinea. This is the opposite of what one would normally see during an active season. For example, in ASO 2020 the tropics featured a solid +AMO configuration, with negative anomalies over the Gulf of Guinea. Unlike in 2020, the MDR is not expected to the warmer than the rest of the (global) tropics, but rather cooler. Combined with a warm Niño 1+2, this would indicate enhanced TC activity over the EPAC, sinking air and increased VWS over the Caribbean/MDR, and an implied stronger TUTT, the last of which would weaken the subtropical ridge, thus allowing anything that enters the relatively favourable subtropics to curve OTS. In other words, the EC suggests an outcome similar to that of 2006, 2013, or 2019, regardless of its numbers. Finally, despite weaker-than-average trades over the past few weeks, SST in the tropical Atlantic have not changed significantly, if at all, suggesting a cooler subsurface than in 2020, regardless of the Canary Current being warmer. The main factor that will work toward an average or slightly-above-average season is the strong African monsoon, along with the neutral IOD. I still think we could see an average to slightly-above-average season, but certainly not a solidly-above-average or hyperactive one, based on current indicators. Reaching ACE of 150 or higher will be rather difficult. As for the CONUS, I think it is likely to escape significant impacts in 2021, but the Bahamas and/or the Canadian Maritimes could sustain at least one significant hit.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#352 Postby ClarCari » Thu May 06, 2021 4:17 am

:uarrow:
Shell Mound wrote:
ClarCari wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:https://i.postimg.cc/dQNrKpMb/ECENSO.png

SST gradients have been highlighted to better depict the -AMO and the ENSO pattern. The overall look is unfavourable for the Caribbean and MDR.

https://twitter.com/cyclonicwx/status/1390068372025511939

With east-based warm neutral ENSO and an -AMO, the pattern would not just hinder the deep tropics, but also likely result in more OTS tracks.

...

Warm neutral ENSO is not the same as warm ENSO (El Niño). The main point is that the EC indicates that the warmest SST in the equatorial Pacific will be in Niño 1+2 during ASO 2021. It also indicates the possibility of cooler-than-average SST in the MDR and Caribbean, along with warmer-than-average SST in the Gulf of Guinea. This is the opposite of what one would normally see during an active season. For example, in ASO 2020 the tropics featured a solid +AMO configuration, with negative anomalies over the Gulf of Guinea. Unlike in 2020, the MDR is not expected to the warmer than the rest of the (global) tropics, but rather cooler. Combined with a warm Niño 1+2, this would indicate enhanced TC activity over the EPAC, sinking air and increased VWS over the Caribbean/MDR, and an implied stronger TUTT, the last of which would weaken the subtropical ridge, thus allowing anything that enters the relatively favourable subtropics to curve OTS. In other words, the EC suggests an outcome similar to that of 2006, 2013, or 2019, regardless of its numbers. Finally, despite weaker-than-average trades over the past few weeks, SST in the tropical Atlantic have not changed significantly, if at all, suggesting a cooler subsurface than in 2020, regardless of the Canary Current being warmer. The main factor that will work toward an average or slightly-above-average season is the strong African monsoon, along with the neutral IOD. I still think we could see an average to slightly-above-average season, but certainly not a solidly-above-average or hyperactive one, based on current indicators. Reaching ACE of 150 or higher will be rather difficult. As for the CONUS, I think it is likely to escape significant impacts in 2021, but the Bahamas and/or the Canadian Maritimes could sustain at least one significant hit.

Warm Neutral ENSO and El Niño are actually almost the same when it comes to the ATL Hurricane season just as much as Cool Neutral and La Niña impact it. The differences arise when is comes to severity of severe weather and winter weather across the world.
Also I do not see any substantial models and any evidence that the MDR is going to be cooler than
last year, let alone than average. The consensus among the majority (aka. 50%+) models is for warmer than average MDR SST’s.
Also, these climate models can use the positioning of the Bermuda High as an indicator of the potential moisture and therefor overall TC activity of the Caribbean,
rather than indicating the potential ENSO.
More indicators favor an above-average/extremely active
ATL Season for 2021 than those that don’t; just that those indicators that don’t favor that aren’t decimal chances, so discussing them as realistic chances are still important to talk about.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#353 Postby toad strangler » Thu May 06, 2021 9:17 am

ClarCari wrote::uarrow:
Shell Mound wrote:
ClarCari wrote:...

Warm neutral ENSO is not the same as warm ENSO (El Niño). The main point is that the EC indicates that the warmest SST in the equatorial Pacific will be in Niño 1+2 during ASO 2021. It also indicates the possibility of cooler-than-average SST in the MDR and Caribbean, along with warmer-than-average SST in the Gulf of Guinea. This is the opposite of what one would normally see during an active season. For example, in ASO 2020 the tropics featured a solid +AMO configuration, with negative anomalies over the Gulf of Guinea. Unlike in 2020, the MDR is not expected to the warmer than the rest of the (global) tropics, but rather cooler. Combined with a warm Niño 1+2, this would indicate enhanced TC activity over the EPAC, sinking air and increased VWS over the Caribbean/MDR, and an implied stronger TUTT, the last of which would weaken the subtropical ridge, thus allowing anything that enters the relatively favourable subtropics to curve OTS. In other words, the EC suggests an outcome similar to that of 2006, 2013, or 2019, regardless of its numbers. Finally, despite weaker-than-average trades over the past few weeks, SST in the tropical Atlantic have not changed significantly, if at all, suggesting a cooler subsurface than in 2020, regardless of the Canary Current being warmer. The main factor that will work toward an average or slightly-above-average season is the strong African monsoon, along with the neutral IOD. I still think we could see an average to slightly-above-average season, but certainly not a solidly-above-average or hyperactive one, based on current indicators. Reaching ACE of 150 or higher will be rather difficult. As for the CONUS, I think it is likely to escape significant impacts in 2021, but the Bahamas and/or the Canadian Maritimes could sustain at least one significant hit.

Warm Neutral ENSO and El Niño are actually almost the same when it comes to the ATL Hurricane season just as much as Cool Neutral and La Niña impact it. The differences arise when is comes to severity of severe weather and winter weather across the world.
Also I do not see any substantial models and any evidence that the MDR is going to be cooler than
last year, let alone than average. The consensus among the majority (aka. 50%+) models is for warmer than average MDR SST’s.
Also, these climate models can use the positioning of the Bermuda High as an indicator of the potential moisture and therefor overall TC activity of the Caribbean,
rather than indicating the potential ENSO.
More indicators favor an above-average/extremely active
ATL Season for 2021 than those that don’t; just that those indicators that don’t favor that aren’t decimal chances, so discussing them as realistic chances are still important to talk about.



CSU specifically mentioned in their forecast a higher risk of US terra firma landfall.
Last edited by toad strangler on Thu May 06, 2021 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#354 Postby SFLcane » Thu May 06, 2021 9:31 am

Again something is way off with the Euro's forecast. It has a dry Atlantic yet an ace near 120. Um yea sure. :roll:

USE WITH CAUTION

 https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1390291019175022595


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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#355 Postby Shell Mound » Thu May 06, 2021 10:19 am

SFLcane wrote:Again something is way off with the Euro's forecast. It has a dry Atlantic yet an ace near 120. Um yea sure. :roll:

USE WITH CAUTION

https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1390291019175022595

According to the EC’s archives, here are the past four seasonal outlooks for ACE, with the verification listed first:
Image
ACE forecasts:
May 2017: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 225)
May 2018: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 133)
May 2019: 60% of normal (seasonal outcome: 132)
May 2020: 80% of normal (seasonal outcome: 185)

May 2021: 120% of normal :eek:
Last edited by Shell Mound on Thu May 06, 2021 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#356 Postby SFLcane » Thu May 06, 2021 10:34 am

Shell Mound wrote:
SFLcane wrote:Again something is way off with the Euro's forecast. It has a dry Atlantic yet an ace near 120. Um yea sure. :roll:

USE WITH CAUTION

https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1390291019175022595

According to the EC’s archives, here are the past four seasonal outlooks for ACE during the peak trimonthly period of ASO, with the verification listed first:
https://apps.ecmwf.int/webapps/opencharts/streaming/20210506-1050/bb/pdf2svg-worker-commands-76f4988985-hfwhz-6fe5cac1a363ec1525f54343b6cc9fd8-AjnTk2.svg
ACE forecasts for ASO:
May 2017: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 225)
May 2018: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 133)
May 2019: 60% of normal (seasonal outcome: 132)
May 2020: 80% of normal (seasonal outcome: 185)

May 2021: 120% of normal :eek:


They've had a consistent low bias for sure. :eek: I'm curious if they changed their methods at all.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#357 Postby Shell Mound » Thu May 06, 2021 11:11 am

SFLcane wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:
SFLcane wrote:Again something is way off with the Euro's forecast. It has a dry Atlantic yet an ace near 120. Um yea sure. :roll:

USE WITH CAUTION

https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1390291019175022595

According to the EC’s archives, here are the past four seasonal outlooks for ACE during the peak trimonthly period of ASO, with the verification listed first:
https://apps.ecmwf.int/webapps/opencharts/streaming/20210506-1050/bb/pdf2svg-worker-commands-76f4988985-hfwhz-6fe5cac1a363ec1525f54343b6cc9fd8-AjnTk2.svg
ACE forecasts for ASO:
May 2017: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 225)
May 2018: 70% of normal (seasonal outcome: 133)
May 2019: 60% of normal (seasonal outcome: 132)
May 2020: 80% of normal (seasonal outcome: 185)

May 2021: 120% of normal :eek:


They've had a consistent low bias for sure. :eek: I'm curious if they changed their methods at all.

Based on the chart, I would say no. One thing to bear in mind, however, is the fact that this year the climatological base changes from 1981–2010 to 1991–2020, which would tend to skew the averages toward higher seasonal ACE, given greater weighting toward the active +AMO era. The EC actually overestimated seasonal ACE in 1999, 2008, and 2010, for instance, despite calling for seasonal ACE ≥ 140% of the seasonal average (for the climatological period 1981–2010) in each of these years. Note that the average for 1981–2010 was ~106 and the new average is ~122. Additionally, the seasonal average used in the chart is a normalised value. Nevertheless, the EC has significantly underestimated seasonal ACE for the most active seasons, including 1995, 1998, 2004, 2005, and 2017.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#358 Postby Shell Mound » Fri May 07, 2021 5:23 am

toad strangler wrote:
ClarCari wrote::uarrow:
Shell Mound wrote:Warm neutral ENSO is not the same as warm ENSO (El Niño). The main point is that the EC indicates that the warmest SST in the equatorial Pacific will be in Niño 1+2 during ASO 2021. It also indicates the possibility of cooler-than-average SST in the MDR and Caribbean, along with warmer-than-average SST in the Gulf of Guinea. This is the opposite of what one would normally see during an active season. For example, in ASO 2020 the tropics featured a solid +AMO configuration, with negative anomalies over the Gulf of Guinea. Unlike in 2020, the MDR is not expected to the warmer than the rest of the (global) tropics, but rather cooler. Combined with a warm Niño 1+2, this would indicate enhanced TC activity over the EPAC, sinking air and increased VWS over the Caribbean/MDR, and an implied stronger TUTT, the last of which would weaken the subtropical ridge, thus allowing anything that enters the relatively favourable subtropics to curve OTS. In other words, the EC suggests an outcome similar to that of 2006, 2013, or 2019, regardless of its numbers. Finally, despite weaker-than-average trades over the past few weeks, SST in the tropical Atlantic have not changed significantly, if at all, suggesting a cooler subsurface than in 2020, regardless of the Canary Current being warmer. The main factor that will work toward an average or slightly-above-average season is the strong African monsoon, along with the neutral IOD. I still think we could see an average to slightly-above-average season, but certainly not a solidly-above-average or hyperactive one, based on current indicators. Reaching ACE of 150 or higher will be rather difficult. As for the CONUS, I think it is likely to escape significant impacts in 2021, but the Bahamas and/or the Canadian Maritimes could sustain at least one significant hit.

Warm Neutral ENSO and El Niño are actually almost the same when it comes to the ATL Hurricane season just as much as Cool Neutral and La Niña impact it. The differences arise when is comes to severity of severe weather and winter weather across the world.
Also I do not see any substantial models and any evidence that the MDR is going to be cooler than
last year, let alone than average. The consensus among the majority (aka. 50%+) models is for warmer than average MDR SST’s.
Also, these climate models can use the positioning of the Bermuda High as an indicator of the potential moisture and therefor overall TC activity of the Caribbean,
rather than indicating the potential ENSO.
More indicators favor an above-average/extremely active
ATL Season for 2021 than those that don’t; just that those indicators that don’t favor that aren’t decimal chances, so discussing them as realistic chances are still important to talk about.

CSU specifically mentioned in their forecast a higher risk of US terra firma landfall.

Nevertheless, CSU’s probabilities are strictly statistical and are not based on projected steering currents. 2010 proved that sheer numbers ≠ more landfalls.
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toad strangler
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#359 Postby toad strangler » Fri May 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
toad strangler wrote:
ClarCari wrote::uarrow:
Warm Neutral ENSO and El Niño are actually almost the same when it comes to the ATL Hurricane season just as much as Cool Neutral and La Niña impact it. The differences arise when is comes to severity of severe weather and winter weather across the world.
Also I do not see any substantial models and any evidence that the MDR is going to be cooler than
last year, let alone than average. The consensus among the majority (aka. 50%+) models is for warmer than average MDR SST’s.
Also, these climate models can use the positioning of the Bermuda High as an indicator of the potential moisture and therefor overall TC activity of the Caribbean,
rather than indicating the potential ENSO.
More indicators favor an above-average/extremely active
ATL Season for 2021 than those that don’t; just that those indicators that don’t favor that aren’t decimal chances, so discussing them as realistic chances are still important to talk about.

CSU specifically mentioned in their forecast a higher risk of US terra firma landfall.

Nevertheless, CSU’s probabilities are strictly statistical and are not based on projected steering currents. 2010 proved that sheer numbers ≠ more landfalls.


OK, I guess we have choices on content that we favor. I'll go with CSU in this case.
Last edited by toad strangler on Fri May 07, 2021 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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