2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#801 Postby aspen » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:05 am

CyclonicFury wrote:
tolakram wrote:
aspen wrote:2021 doesn’t need to have a super early MDR hurricane like Beryl, but last year I went through every season from 1980 to present day and found a strong correlation between MDR or AEW-based storms/hurricanes in July and overall season activity. Accounting for 2020 (which had 3 AEW July systems, two of which became hurricanes), the average season numbers are:
—16.9 named storms
—9.0 hurricanes
—4.1 majors
—160.29 ACE

For seasons that had any non-AEW-based July system, even if they also had a tropical wave born system as well, the average is much lower:
—13.4 named storms
—6.6 hurricanes
—2.9 majors
—115.40 ACE

So yes, July activity is a very strong sign of what the rest of the season could be like. However, the fact that a lot of things are attempting to form this early does make the predictions for an above-average season more likely…unless there’s a sudden shift to +ENSO.



Bringing this over here, since it was used as a source.

This article also says an Active July portends a higher ACE season.

https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/farewell-don-watching-hilary

2017 ended up at 226 ACE after 2.5 systems in July.

What this doesn't say is the typical ACE for seasons with lower July activity.

I believe 2017 only had about 1 ACE in July. 2004 had 0. You don't always need an active June or July for a strong hurricane season. I think it's possible we could see a hurricane in July, but you don't see one every year.

I’m inclined to believe that July ACE doesn’t matter a whole lot; rather, just the presence of any system developing from an AEW is enough of a signal for an active year with high ACE.

2017 had the lowest ACE for its first five storms of any season thus far, and its early season MDR storms were pathetic and barely even tropical storms. 2005 had the most active July on record, with two long-tracking 130+ kt major hurricanes and a few other systems. Both seasons finished with absurdly high ACE totals of 250 (2005) and 227 (2017), which are surprisingly close for seasons with such vastly different July activity levels.

Another pair of seasons I want to bring up are 2018 and 2019. Both finished with nearly the exact same ACE, less than 1 unit different from each other, and both had at least one July hurricane. However, 2018 had a MDR hurricane (Beryl) while 2019’s only July hurricane came from a non-tropical disturbance. This also might suggest that storm quality doesn’t matter that much, as compared to the existence of a storm. If conditions are favorable enough for any kinda of system to form in the MDR and/or from a tropical wave in July, or if any hurricane forms in July, then it signals that conditions will be very favorable later in the season and lead to above-average activity.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#802 Postby CyclonicFury » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:39 am

aspen wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:
tolakram wrote:

Bringing this over here, since it was used as a source.

This article also says an Active July portends a higher ACE season.

https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/farewell-don-watching-hilary

2017 ended up at 226 ACE after 2.5 systems in July.

What this doesn't say is the typical ACE for seasons with lower July activity.

I believe 2017 only had about 1 ACE in July. 2004 had 0. You don't always need an active June or July for a strong hurricane season. I think it's possible we could see a hurricane in July, but you don't see one every year.

I’m inclined to believe that July ACE doesn’t matter a whole lot; rather, just the presence of any system developing from an AEW is enough of a signal for an active year with high ACE.

2017 had the lowest ACE for its first five storms of any season thus far, and its early season MDR storms were pathetic and barely even tropical storms. 2005 had the most active July on record, with two long-tracking 130+ kt major hurricanes and a few other systems. Both seasons finished with absurdly high ACE totals of 250 (2005) and 227 (2017), which are surprisingly close for seasons with such vastly different July activity levels.

Another pair of seasons I want to bring up are 2018 and 2019. Both finished with nearly the exact same ACE, less than 1 unit different from each other, and both had at least one July hurricane. However, 2018 had a MDR hurricane (Beryl) while 2019’s only July hurricane came from a non-tropical disturbance. This also might suggest that storm quality doesn’t matter that much, as compared to the existence of a storm. If conditions are favorable enough for any kinda of system to form in the MDR and/or from a tropical wave in July, or if any hurricane forms in July, then it signals that conditions will be very favorable later in the season and lead to above-average activity.

Then you have the outlier of 1997, which had 3 named storms and 2 hurricanes form - but that was a super El Niño year.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#803 Postby captainbarbossa19 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:51 pm

CyclonicFury wrote:
aspen wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:I believe 2017 only had about 1 ACE in July. 2004 had 0. You don't always need an active June or July for a strong hurricane season. I think it's possible we could see a hurricane in July, but you don't see one every year.

I’m inclined to believe that July ACE doesn’t matter a whole lot; rather, just the presence of any system developing from an AEW is enough of a signal for an active year with high ACE.

2017 had the lowest ACE for its first five storms of any season thus far, and its early season MDR storms were pathetic and barely even tropical storms. 2005 had the most active July on record, with two long-tracking 130+ kt major hurricanes and a few other systems. Both seasons finished with absurdly high ACE totals of 250 (2005) and 227 (2017), which are surprisingly close for seasons with such vastly different July activity levels.

Another pair of seasons I want to bring up are 2018 and 2019. Both finished with nearly the exact same ACE, less than 1 unit different from each other, and both had at least one July hurricane. However, 2018 had a MDR hurricane (Beryl) while 2019’s only July hurricane came from a non-tropical disturbance. This also might suggest that storm quality doesn’t matter that much, as compared to the existence of a storm. If conditions are favorable enough for any kinda of system to form in the MDR and/or from a tropical wave in July, or if any hurricane forms in July, then it signals that conditions will be very favorable later in the season and lead to above-average activity.

Then you have the outlier of 1997, which had 3 named storms and 2 hurricanes form - but that was a super El Niño year.


Good points everyone. I do not think July is a good indicator at all for season activity. Some years have lots of July storms with lower ACE for the season. On the other hand, some years have few or no July storms with tons of ACE for the season. As usual, I think we will have to wait until August and September to know what is going to happen.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#805 Postby cycloneye » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:35 pm

Very interesting discussion there about the warm Gulf of Guinea and how that plays a roll on how the MDR will be in terms of activity.

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#806 Postby Deshaunrob17 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 pm

aspen wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:
tolakram wrote:

Bringing this over here, since it was used as a source.

This article also says an Active July portends a higher ACE season.

https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/farewell-don-watching-hilary

2017 ended up at 226 ACE after 2.5 systems in July.

What this doesn't say is the typical ACE for seasons with lower July activity.

I believe 2017 only had about 1 ACE in July. 2004 had 0. You don't always need an active June or July for a strong hurricane season. I think it's possible we could see a hurricane in July, but you don't see one every year.

I’m inclined to believe that July ACE doesn’t matter a whole lot; rather, just the presence of any system developing from an AEW is enough of a signal for an active year with high ACE.

2017 had the lowest ACE for its first five storms of any season thus far, and its early season MDR storms were pathetic and barely even tropical storms. 2005 had the most active July on record, with two long-tracking 130+ kt major hurricanes and a few other systems. Both seasons finished with absurdly high ACE totals of 250 (2005) and 227 (2017), which are surprisingly close for seasons with such vastly different July activity levels.

Another pair of seasons I want to bring up are 2018 and 2019. Both finished with nearly the exact same ACE, less than 1 unit different from each other, and both had at least one July hurricane. However, 2018 had a MDR hurricane (Beryl) while 2019’s only July hurricane came from a non-tropical disturbance. This also might suggest that storm quality doesn’t matter that much, as compared to the existence of a storm. If conditions are favorable enough for any kinda of system to form in the MDR and/or from a tropical wave in July, or if any hurricane forms in July, then it signals that conditions will be very favorable later in the season and lead to above-average activity.


Yeah after Emily formed in 2017, I remembered there were plenty posts with this season gonna be one with weak storms...
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#807 Postby Stormybajan » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:26 pm

cycloneye wrote:Very interesting discussion there about the warm Gulf of Guinea and how that plays a roll on how the MDR will be in terms of activity.

https://i.imgur.com/FEon9Ed.png


Any chance with a more southern ITCZ right now and this record warmth in the Gulf of Guniea has contributed to the more potent AEWs?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#808 Postby aspen » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:59 pm


What does an “Atlantic Nino” due to seasonal activity? Does it inhibit it like a normal Nino?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#809 Postby Yellow Evan » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 am

aspen wrote:

What does an “Atlantic Nino” due to seasonal activity? Does it inhibit it like a normal Nino?


Normally it suppresses the ITCZ and moves it southward. However, in this case, since the waters are so warm, it’s likely to enhance the ASW.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#810 Postby Shell Mound » Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:20 am

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#811 Postby Shell Mound » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:23 am

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#812 Postby Hypercane_Kyle » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:36 am

MDR SST factors are only one part of the story. 2020 had significantly above-average temperatures in the MDR and a relatively anemic Cape Verde season, much like 2005.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#813 Postby GrayLancer18 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:02 am

aspen wrote:

What does an “Atlantic Nino” due to seasonal activity? Does it inhibit it like a normal Nino?


According to this, it actually enhances TC activity.

 https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/1407724282399002626




Here is the full link of the investigation: https://cpaess.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/meetings/2020/presentations/kim-presentation.pdf
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#814 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:14 am

I seriously think that extremely potent Atlantic Nino (should it last) will allow for some very long track, ACE-gobbling Cape Verde storms this season.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#815 Postby AnnularCane » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 am

I don't think I've ever heard of an Atlantic Nino or Atlantic Modoki until relatively recently. Has it been only newly discovered or have I just plain not heard of it?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#816 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:39 am

AnnularCane wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of an Atlantic Nino or Atlantic Modoki until relatively recently. Has it been only newly discovered or have I just plain not heard of it?


No, a pattern like this has been seen in years like 2020 and 1988, and it is a poorly understood and studied phenomenon. However it seems to be quite prominent this year especially, so that is why many wx individuals are talking about it. I've personally never seen or heard of it myself until last year, but this year has definitely brought it to my attention further.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#817 Postby Stormybajan » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:49 am

GrayLancer18 wrote:
aspen wrote:

What does an “Atlantic Nino” due to seasonal activity? Does it inhibit it like a normal Nino?


According to this, it actually enhances TC activity.

https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/1407724282399002626?s=20

Here is the full link of the investigation: https://cpaess.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/meetings/2020/presentations/kim-presentation.pdf


Not gonna lie I've never heard the term "Atlantic Nino" until Monday but lol thats basically what we have down there in Gulf of Guniea. I was questioning why would warmer waters in the south of the MDR be a hindering factor (even though it apparently suppresses the ITCZ to the south) but wouldnt that be good thing? With all the Mega SAL bursts to the north I always thought this "Atlantic Nino" would be a positive factor instead of a negative one by helping the waves stay lower and avoiding the SAL. Seems like my assumption is right?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#818 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:06 pm

Stormybajan wrote:
GrayLancer18 wrote:
aspen wrote:What does an “Atlantic Nino” due to seasonal activity? Does it inhibit it like a normal Nino?


According to this, it actually enhances TC activity.

https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/1407724282399002626?s=20

Here is the full link of the investigation: https://cpaess.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/meetings/2020/presentations/kim-presentation.pdf


Not gonna lie I've never heard the term "Atlantic Nino" until Monday but lol thats basically what we have down there in Gulf of Guniea. I was questioning why would warmer waters in the south of the MDR be a hindering factor (even though it apparently suppresses the ITCZ to the south) but wouldnt that be good thing? With all the Mega SAL bursts to the north I always thought this "Atlantic Nino" would be a positive factor instead of a negative one by helping the waves stay lower and avoiding the SAL. Seems like my assumption is right?


Yeah it's definitely a hypothesis that is floated around. I've heard various thoughts on how the Atlantic Nino could be constructive or destructive for a busy MDR season, but one thing I personally think is highly likely with this kind of pattern is it would create a strong gradient between the north with a lot of dry air but the south with very wet conditions that could allow more storms that originate almost near the equator to form. While we have yet to see what happens, I also think that we may see more storms hit countries like Trinidad, Guyana, Venezuela, or Colombia with this.

Additionally, while I am only speculating as of now, I do think there may be a possibility that this sort of pattern may allow for the return of a dreaded threat we have not seen since the 2000s: Caribbean cruisers.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#819 Postby Ubuntwo » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:25 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
Stormybajan wrote:
GrayLancer18 wrote:
According to this, it actually enhances TC activity.

https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/1407724282399002626?s=20

Here is the full link of the investigation: https://cpaess.ucar.edu/sites/default/files/meetings/2020/presentations/kim-presentation.pdf


Not gonna lie I've never heard the term "Atlantic Nino" until Monday but lol thats basically what we have down there in Gulf of Guniea. I was questioning why would warmer waters in the south of the MDR be a hindering factor (even though it apparently suppresses the ITCZ to the south) but wouldnt that be good thing? With all the Mega SAL bursts to the north I always thought this "Atlantic Nino" would be a positive factor instead of a negative one by helping the waves stay lower and avoiding the SAL. Seems like my assumption is right?


Yeah it's definitely a hypothesis that is floated around. I've heard various thoughts on how the Atlantic Nino could be constructive or destructive for a busy MDR season, but one thing I personally think is highly likely with this kind of pattern is it would create a strong gradient between the north with a lot of dry air but the south with very wet conditions that could allow more storms that originate almost near the equator to form. While we have yet to see what happens, I also think that we may see more storms hit countries like Trinidad, Guyana, Venezuela, or Colombia with this.

Additionally, while I am only speculating as of now, I do think there may be a possibility that this sort of pattern may allow for the return of a dreaded threat we have not seen since the 2000s: Caribbean cruisers.


In all fairness 2020 had at least a couple Caribbean cruisers. I remember hearing about an Atlantic Nino last year but it was pretty transient.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#820 Postby Category5Kaiju » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:26 pm

Ubuntwo wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:
Stormybajan wrote:
Not gonna lie I've never heard the term "Atlantic Nino" until Monday but lol thats basically what we have down there in Gulf of Guniea. I was questioning why would warmer waters in the south of the MDR be a hindering factor (even though it apparently suppresses the ITCZ to the south) but wouldnt that be good thing? With all the Mega SAL bursts to the north I always thought this "Atlantic Nino" would be a positive factor instead of a negative one by helping the waves stay lower and avoiding the SAL. Seems like my assumption is right?


Yeah it's definitely a hypothesis that is floated around. I've heard various thoughts on how the Atlantic Nino could be constructive or destructive for a busy MDR season, but one thing I personally think is highly likely with this kind of pattern is it would create a strong gradient between the north with a lot of dry air but the south with very wet conditions that could allow more storms that originate almost near the equator to form. While we have yet to see what happens, I also think that we may see more storms hit countries like Trinidad, Guyana, Venezuela, or Colombia with this.

Additionally, while I am only speculating as of now, I do think there may be a possibility that this sort of pattern may allow for the return of a dreaded threat we have not seen since the 2000s: Caribbean cruisers.


In all fairness 2020 had at least a couple Caribbean cruisers. I remember hearing about an Atlantic Nino last year but it was pretty transient.


Oh yes you're right, but maybe I should have clarified my previous comment when I said "Caribbean cruiser," I am referring to the storms that originate in the MDR or near the Cape Verde Islands and then go on to become very powerful in the Caribbean Sea
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