2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1541 Postby Category5Kaiju » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:35 am

CyclonicFury wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:Perhaps as an easier reference, I'll pull up some timelines of some of the past years that people have been comparing and hypothesizing 2021 to resemble; notice how in many cases the actual intense bulk of the season does not begin until mid-August or so.

1933 (much like what CSU predicts 2021 to be, it was also a 20 NS season with one MDR hurricane in July):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/3b421e37dac1e01b00a61fef2736d5f0.png

1961 (also had an MDR hurricane in July):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/3b9dff2050afdd757b583a9fa1b47195.png

1996 (also had an MDR hurricane in July and was almost a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/1c95b41abbf2e2c96d0b49c159d390a7.png

2001 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and many people have been suggesting some track similarities):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/90ba223b3671d4c8191b5dbcf7dd2385.png

2004 (based on the steering patterns expected by peak season for 2021 as well as a decent number of low latitude-born systems):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/d4d50aebce18875a0269ef4032684bb4.png

2008 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e885c0aa78907642b05e266a1f80e9f0.png

2011 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/92af13febe68158251323e54eda45350.png

2013 (I mean, people never cease to compare a given season with this year at any point, especially early in the season; 2021 is no exception):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/b675c21952cf6e33f9e0e6ce7499d7be.png

2017 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina with very high land impacts):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/155d6cf6cbab384ff37c09d69ff253e9.png

2020 (also had an MDR hurricane in July, and 2021 comes at the heels of this very active year):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/035706c7b11bc4ee05424c6f4d0f2a89.png

2020 did not have a MDR hurricane in July. Isaias did not become a hurricane until it was near Hispaniola.


Yeah no you're right; I fixed that, thanks anyways. It just shows you how having a July MDR hurricane is quite impressive considering how many seasons in the past, even some of the more notable ones, did not feature such an event in a climatologically hostile month
Last edited by Category5Kaiju on Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1542 Postby jconsor » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:36 am

I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

 https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801




 https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485


Last edited by jconsor on Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1543 Postby AlphaToOmega » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:36 am

InfernoFlameCat wrote:
CyclonicFury wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:Perhaps as an easier reference, I'll pull up some timelines of some of the past years that people have been comparing and hypothesizing 2021 to resemble; notice how in many cases the actual intense bulk of the season does not begin until mid-August or so.

1933 (much like what CSU predicts 2021 to be, it was also a 20 NS season with one MDR hurricane in July):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/3b421e37dac1e01b00a61fef2736d5f0.png

1961 (also had an MDR hurricane in July):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/3b9dff2050afdd757b583a9fa1b47195.png

1996 (also had an MDR hurricane in July and was almost a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/1c95b41abbf2e2c96d0b49c159d390a7.png

2001 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and many people have been suggesting some track similarities):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/90ba223b3671d4c8191b5dbcf7dd2385.png

2004 (based on the steering patterns expected by peak season for 2021 as well as a decent number of low latitude-born systems):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/d4d50aebce18875a0269ef4032684bb4.png

2008 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e885c0aa78907642b05e266a1f80e9f0.png

2011 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/92af13febe68158251323e54eda45350.png

2013 (I mean, people never cease to compare a given season with this year at any point, especially early in the season; 2021 is no exception):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/b675c21952cf6e33f9e0e6ce7499d7be.png

2017 (was an analog year CSU provided earlier this season and was also a second year La Nina with very high land impacts):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/155d6cf6cbab384ff37c09d69ff253e9.png

2020 (also had an MDR hurricane in July, and 2021 comes at the heels of this very active year):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/035706c7b11bc4ee05424c6f4d0f2a89.png

2020 did not have a MDR hurricane in July. Isaias did not become a hurricane until it was near Hispaniola.

Hannah was a hurricane in july


Hurricane Hannah formed in the Gulf of Mexico, not the Main Development Region.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1544 Postby jconsor » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:41 am

Actually, Isaias became a hurricane on Jul 30 according to the best track: http://www.atms.unca.edu/ibtracs/ibtrac ... 0211N13306

CyclonicFury wrote:[2020 did not have a MDR hurricane in July. Isaias did not become a hurricane until it was near Hispaniola.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1545 Postby SFLcane » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:48 am

jconsor wrote:I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485


Sure, I have been hammering that very same thing for weeks now. This could very well be an impactful season.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1546 Postby jconsor » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:10 pm

I have warned in the past about the limitations of using precipitation anomaly maps alone to infer areas of likely tropical cyclone risks. However, when taking the forecast 500 mb pattern along with the precip. anomalies, the implication of two of my favorite seasonal models (Australian ACCESS model and Japanese JMA) is that in-close development (W Atlantic, GOM, Caribbean) will be more favored than further east during peak season. This is similar to 2021, 2005 and 1985, which were all high-impact US landfall seasons.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

SFLcane wrote:
jconsor wrote:I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485


Sure, I have been hammering that very same thing for weeks now. This could very well be an impactful season.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1547 Postby Shell Mound » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:14 pm

jconsor wrote:I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801
https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485

Homegrown systems usually tend to be on the weak(-er) side (<Category 4). Of the eleven hurricanes to strike the U.S. at Cat-4+ status in the month of August since 1851, eight originated as a TD or stronger in the MDR. The eight storms were the 1886 Indianola hurricane, the 1915 Galveston hurricane, the 1916 Texas hurricane, the 1949 Florida hurricane, Andrew (1992), Charley (2004), Harvey (2017), and Laura (2020). Based on modelled projections the MDR should not become favourable until the last week of August. By the time a strong CV system is “out there” the strong ridging could be gone or displaced. Additionally, the ACCESS and JMA suggest that the storms that do develop during the peak of the 2021 AHS are likely to be smaller and homegrown, thus posing less of a hazard than a large long-tracker, because a tiny homegrown system that intensifies close to shore is a) less likely to be Cat-4+ at landfall and b) is less likely to deliver a wide range of hazards over a broad area than a large system like, say, Hugo or Irma. Those models are also showing EPAC convection during August and September that will likely shear anything that manages to form close to land. Therefore, truly high-impact storms (as measured by the Hurricane Severity Index) are less likely to occur this year.

Image
Source

Image
Image
Last edited by Shell Mound on Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1548 Postby SFLcane » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:21 pm

Yconsor, A 2005 impactful kinda year unfortunately I agree with you if the model forecast verify.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1549 Postby Category5Kaiju » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:29 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
jconsor wrote:I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801
https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485

Homegrown systems usually tend to be on the weak(-er) side (<Category 4). Of the eleven hurricanes to strike the U.S. at Cat-4+ status in the month of August since 1851, eight originated as a TD or stronger in the MDR. The eight storms were the 1886 Indianola hurricane, the 1915 Galveston hurricane, the 1916 Texas hurricane, the 1949 Florida hurricane, Andrew (1992), Charley (2004), Harvey (2017), and Laura (2020). Based on modelled projections the MDR should not become favourable until the last week of August. By the time a strong CV system is “out there” the strong ridging could be gone or displaced. Additionally, the ACCESS and JMA suggest that the storms that do develop during the peak of the 2021 AHS are likely to be smaller and homegrown, thus posing less of a hazard than a large long-tracker, because a tiny homegrown system that intensifies close to shore is a) less likely to be Cat-4+ at landfall and b) is less likely to deliver a wide range of hazards over a broad area than a large system like, say, Hugo or Irma. Those models are also showing EPAC convection during August and September that will likely shear anything that manages to form close to land. Therefore, truly high-impact storms (as measured by the Hurricane Severity Index) are less likely to occur this year.

https://i.ibb.co/VLYWBTT/Ska-rmavbild-2021-07-22-kl-20-07-42.png
Source


While it was not a Cat 4 at landfall in August, Katrina is a great example of how homegrown systems does not necessarily mean they have to be small and struggle to make a devastating blow on a population center. Katrina was very large and had a pretty low minimum pressure of 902 mbar for a 175 mph hurricane and made landfall as a 920 mbar storm (core pressure is usually pretty indicative of how intense and subsequently dangerous a storm can be at landfall). In addition, a large Cat 2 landfall like Ike can also be pretty bad; it generated a record high surge for the continental US. You don't always need a Cat 4+ storm at landfall to cause major problems and have a storm that is remembered for years. Also, if we're headed toward a weak La Nina as a very realistic outcome, I'm not exactly sure why EPAC convection in August or September would really shear anything that manages to form near land; I do not know how much of a problem that would really be frankly. We'll see though.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1550 Postby Shell Mound » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:05 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:
jconsor wrote:I would watch for homegrown development (in GOM or off the coast of eastern US) through the first third of Aug, with limited chance of anything forming in the MDR. Then I would expect MDR activity to begin picking up by around the third week of Aug.

However, either type of development would pose higher than usual US landfall risks by mid to late Aug based on the projected upper-level pattern (similar to the pattern from late Jun to first week of Jul that led to the all-time record heat in the Pacific NW/W. Canada as well as very hot conditions in the ne US).

https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418245564181921801
https://twitter.com/yconsor/status/1418248084371476485

Homegrown systems usually tend to be on the weak(-er) side (<Category 4). Of the eleven hurricanes to strike the U.S. at Cat-4+ status in the month of August since 1851, eight originated as a TD or stronger in the MDR. The eight storms were the 1886 Indianola hurricane, the 1915 Galveston hurricane, the 1916 Texas hurricane, the 1949 Florida hurricane, Andrew (1992), Charley (2004), Harvey (2017), and Laura (2020). Based on modelled projections the MDR should not become favourable until the last week of August. By the time a strong CV system is “out there” the strong ridging could be gone or displaced. Additionally, the ACCESS and JMA suggest that the storms that do develop during the peak of the 2021 AHS are likely to be smaller and homegrown, thus posing less of a hazard than a large long-tracker, because a tiny homegrown system that intensifies close to shore is a) less likely to be Cat-4+ at landfall and b) is less likely to deliver a wide range of hazards over a broad area than a large system like, say, Hugo or Irma. Those models are also showing EPAC convection during August and September that will likely shear anything that manages to form close to land. Therefore, truly high-impact storms (as measured by the Hurricane Severity Index) are less likely to occur this year.

https://i.ibb.co/VLYWBTT/Ska-rmavbild-2021-07-22-kl-20-07-42.png
Source

...

I didn’t count Ike, as it was a CV-type system, and, moreover, it occurred in September; I was only looking at Cat-4+ impacts on the CONUS during the month of August. Among hyperactive seasons, 2005, like 2020, was very unusual in that most of its activity was concentrated in the western part of the basin, whereas most hyperactive seasons tend to feature intense activity farther east, in the MDR. During inactive phases, one actually tends to see more “homegrown” development or formation in the subtropics than activity in the MDR. During inactive cycles storms tend to be smaller, weaker, and concentrated farther west vs. storms that form during active cycles. Inactive cycles also tend to feature a greater proportion of small storms that intensify rapidly close to shore, like the 1935 Labor Day hurricane, Gracie (1959), Camille (1969), Celia (1970), Eloise (1975), Diana (1984), or Michael (2018). Unlike large systems such as Beulah (1967), Agnes (1972), Frances (2004), Ivan (2004), Katrina (2005), or Ike (2008), smaller systems tend to produce fewer tornadoes as they move ashore, usually produce less flooding from either surge or precipitation, and confine their worst wind-related impacts to small areas. Andrew barely produced TS winds just 30 n mi north of its eye, and Charley was even smaller than Andrew. A tiny but intense system would basically need to directly hit the very centre of a populated area to produce extreme impacts within the span of a few miles, with minimal impacts on either side of that swath. So the possibility that large, intense systems, which tend to form farther east before tracking westward, will be less likely in 2021 is very good news for the Western Hemisphere. I’d rather take my chances with another Andrew than with another Audrey, Carla, or Katrina.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1551 Postby cycloneye » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:20 pm

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1552 Postby storminabox » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:23 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:Homegrown systems usually tend to be on the weak(-er) side (<Category 4). Of the eleven hurricanes to strike the U.S. at Cat-4+ status in the month of August since 1851, eight originated as a TD or stronger in the MDR. The eight storms were the 1886 Indianola hurricane, the 1915 Galveston hurricane, the 1916 Texas hurricane, the 1949 Florida hurricane, Andrew (1992), Charley (2004), Harvey (2017), and Laura (2020). Based on modelled projections the MDR should not become favourable until the last week of August. By the time a strong CV system is “out there” the strong ridging could be gone or displaced. Additionally, the ACCESS and JMA suggest that the storms that do develop during the peak of the 2021 AHS are likely to be smaller and homegrown, thus posing less of a hazard than a large long-tracker, because a tiny homegrown system that intensifies close to shore is a) less likely to be Cat-4+ at landfall and b) is less likely to deliver a wide range of hazards over a broad area than a large system like, say, Hugo or Irma. Those models are also showing EPAC convection during August and September that will likely shear anything that manages to form close to land. Therefore, truly high-impact storms (as measured by the Hurricane Severity Index) are less likely to occur this year.

https://i.ibb.co/VLYWBTT/Ska-rmavbild-2021-07-22-kl-20-07-42.png
Source

...

I didn’t count Ike, as it was a CV-type system, and, moreover, it occurred in September; I was only looking at Cat-4+ impacts on the CONUS during the month of August. Among hyperactive seasons, 2005, like 2020, was very unusual in that most of its activity was concentrated in the western part of the basin, whereas most hyperactive seasons tend to feature intense activity farther east, in the MDR. During inactive phases, one actually tends to see more “homegrown” development or formation in the subtropics than activity in the MDR. During inactive cycles storms tend to be smaller, weaker, and concentrated farther west vs. storms that form during active cycles. Inactive cycles also tend to feature a greater proportion of small storms that intensify rapidly close to shore, like the 1935 Labor Day hurricane, Gracie (1959), Camille (1969), Celia (1970), Eloise (1975), Diana (1984), or Michael (2018). Unlike large systems such as Beulah (1967), Agnes (1972), Frances (2004), Ivan (2004), Katrina (2005), or Ike (2008), smaller systems tend to produce fewer tornadoes as they move ashore, usually produce less flooding from either surge or precipitation, and confine their worst wind-related impacts to small areas. Andrew barely produced TS winds just 30 n mi north of its eye, and Charley was even smaller than Andrew. A tiny but intense system would basically need to directly hit the very centre of a populated area to produce extreme impacts within the span of a few miles, with minimal impacts on either side of that swath. So the possibility that large, intense systems, which tend to form farther east before tracking westward, will be less likely in 2021 is very good news for the Western Hemisphere. I’d rather take my chances with another Andrew than with another Audrey, Carla, or Katrina.


So you believe that we are now in a less active cycle aka -AMO?
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1553 Postby AlphaToOmega » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:51 pm

TUTT = high potential vorticity
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1554 Postby SFLcane » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:35 pm

Maybe we’re skipping this season? Lol…

No TCs through September 5 on the EPS control.

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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1555 Postby AlphaToOmega » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:37 pm

SFLcane wrote:Maybe we’re skipping this season? Lol…

No TCs through September 5 on the EPS control.

https://i.postimg.cc/Vvvcw0Gn/8-B884703-C69-B-4-E72-A970-A0-B34-E90-C874.png


Watch as someone uses this as evidence that the season will be inactive :lol:

I could have sworn a while ago that the model was showing an MDR storm circa August 22.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1556 Postby aspen » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:59 pm

SFLcane wrote:Maybe we’re skipping this season? Lol…

No TCs through September 5 on the EPS control.

https://i.postimg.cc/Vvvcw0Gn/8-B884703-C69-B-4-E72-A970-A0-B34-E90-C874.png

Windshield wipers and split personality disorder in full effect. Going from active to inactive, and showing both positive and negative conditions at the same time from different outputs.

I find it very hard to believe that will verify. I mean, we had the earliest 5th named storm on record and one of the earliest MDR hurricanes on record, and we’re entering another La Niña with a very active WAM and a favorable ITCZ location. No way a season with this setup has a TC gap spanning mid July through early September. Not even the Super Nino year 2015 had a gap like that! And it even had a MDR major.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1557 Postby cycloneye » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:18 pm

Oh boy, let's brace for those SC now.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1558 Postby AlphaToOmega » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:20 pm

cycloneye wrote:Oh boy, let's brace for those SC now.


The people of Storm2K have wised up to the fact that a lull of activity does not mean an inactive season; even record-breaking seasons have lulls. I think it is people on Twitter who need to be reminded of this.
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1559 Postby SFLcane » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:26 pm

cycloneye wrote:Oh boy, let's brace for those SC now.


lol!
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Re: 2021 Indicators: SST's / SAL / MSLP / Shear / Steering / Instability / Sat Images

#1560 Postby aspen » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:27 pm

AlphaToOmega wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Oh boy, let's brace for those SC now.


The people of Storm2K have wised up to the fact that a lull of activity does not mean an inactive season; even record-breaking seasons have lulls. think it is people on Twitter who need to be reminded of this.

Yeah, good luck. It’s Twitter, so you’ll probably have more success blowing away the next hurricane with a regular fan than changing their stances.

The Euro has been consistently garbage with TCG since early last year, so a run showing absolutely no TCs for over a month should be expected.
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Irene '11 Sandy '12 Hermine '16 5/15/2018 Derecho Fay '20 Isaias '20 Elsa '21 Henri '21 Ida '21

I am only a meteorology enthusiast who knows a decent amount about tropical cyclones. Look to the professional mets, the NHC, or your local weather office for the best information.


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