WPAC: CHANTHU - Post-Tropical

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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#161 Postby NotoSans » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:16 am

StormTracker89 wrote:
WAcyclone wrote:SMAP got it but it looks like the extremely small core may have been undersampled by the instrument. The highest pixel value windspeed obtained was about 88 kt 10-minute (~98 kt 1 minute). Nothing can replace recon, unfortunately.

https://i.imgur.com/JlFiSb1.jpg


Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

 https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106


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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#162 Postby StormTracker89 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:18 am

NotoSans wrote:
StormTracker89 wrote:
WAcyclone wrote:SMAP got it but it looks like the extremely small core may have been undersampled by the instrument. The highest pixel value windspeed obtained was about 88 kt 10-minute (~98 kt 1 minute). Nothing can replace recon, unfortunately.

https://i.imgur.com/JlFiSb1.jpg


Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106?s=21


Well..what do ya know!
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#163 Postby aspen » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:21 am

NotoSans wrote:
StormTracker89 wrote:
WAcyclone wrote:SMAP got it but it looks like the extremely small core may have been undersampled by the instrument. The highest pixel value windspeed obtained was about 88 kt 10-minute (~98 kt 1 minute). Nothing can replace recon, unfortunately.

https://i.imgur.com/JlFiSb1.jpg


Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106?s=21

150kt is around what I was expecting. Chanthu doesn’t have deep enough convection to be up there with pinholes like Gilbert, Wilma, and Hagibis.

What would the pressure be using the KCZ method and accounting for the super tiny core?
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#164 Postby NotoSans » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:37 am

aspen wrote:
NotoSans wrote:
StormTracker89 wrote:
Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106?s=21

150kt is around what I was expecting. Chanthu doesn’t have deep enough convection to be up there with pinholes like Gilbert, Wilma, and Hagibis.

What would the pressure be using the KCZ method and accounting for the super tiny core?


Using working best track data at 06Z (POCI = 1005mb, motion = 10kt, latitude = 15.6N and average 34KT wind radii = 64nm) yields a pressure of 910.1mb under the KZC WPR. However, actual pressure may be higher than KZC estimate given the super tiny core. Personally I would put it at 915/920mb.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#165 Postby WAcyclone » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:00 am

NotoSans wrote:
StormTracker89 wrote:
WAcyclone wrote:SMAP got it but it looks like the extremely small core may have been undersampled by the instrument. The highest pixel value windspeed obtained was about 88 kt 10-minute (~98 kt 1 minute). Nothing can replace recon, unfortunately.

https://i.imgur.com/JlFiSb1.jpg


Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106?s=21


It looks like SAR captured it at almost exactly the same time as SMAP (920 UTC-ish), quite a coincidence! Do you know how the 149 kt value was derived? I just downloaded the raw netCDF data from NOAA which has a maximum pixel value of 193 kt (1-minute) in the northern eyewall. Unrealistically high values are a common problem with SAR but I'm not sure if there is any site using some kind of compensation (e.g. by downsampling the data) to derive more realistic values. Unfortunately, it is hard to recon-verify SAR as it has poor coverage and only rarely captures TCs with active recon.

Image
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#166 Postby StormTracker89 » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:19 am

WAcyclone wrote:
NotoSans wrote:
StormTracker89 wrote:
Not surprising given that nearly the entire core of the system would fit in one 40-km pixel. Resolution of SMAP just isn't good enough to effectively capture a super small system such as this. Too bad we don't have any SAR hits either. That would provide measurements nearly as good as airborne recon.


Just got a direct hit from SAR

https://twitter.com/squirtleinhk/status/1435577362788143106?s=21


It looks like SAR captured it at almost exactly the same time as SMAP (920 UTC-ish), quite a coincidence! Do you know how the 149 kt value was derived? I just downloaded the raw netCDF data from NOAA which has a maximum pixel value of 193 kt (1-minute) in the northern eyewall. Unrealistically high values are a common problem with SAR but I'm not sure if there is any site using some kind of compensation (e.g. by downsampling the data) to derive more realistic values. Unfortunately, it is hard to recon-verify SAR as it has poor coverage and only rarely captures TCs with active recon.

https://i.imgur.com/yBpiLfm.jpg


NOAA SAROPS TC Winds (https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/socd/m ... index.html) site does do some additional processing, derives intensity and position fixes and provides some graphs and plots of the distribution of the wind measurements. However, for some reason they are not providing those products for the most recent Sen-1 hit.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#167 Postby NotoSans » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 am

The value of 149kt is extracted from NRL text file, which provides the wind speed value at every pixel:
https://nrlmry.navy.mil/tcdat/tc2021/WP ... 2109080917
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#168 Postby WAcyclone » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:50 am

NotoSans wrote:The value of 149kt is extracted from NRL text file, which provides the wind speed value at every pixel:
https://nrlmry.navy.mil/tcdat/tc2021/WP ... 2109080917


Thanks! I just plotted the coordinates in that NRL list, it looks like they are simply downsampling the 500 m data to 3 km per pixel. That would certainly reduce some of the more extreme values measured by SAR.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#169 Postby InfernoFlameCat » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:16 am

did the typhoon just ewrc a pinhole eye with a pinhole eye that is slightly larger?
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#170 Postby ElectricStorm » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:30 am

Down to 135kts now, but the forecast calls for a second peak when it nears the Philippines. Anything south of the forecast track could mean a super typhoon into northern Luzon. Just judging on IR, it appears the ERC is going pretty smoothly. If that's the case this could easily get back to Cat 5 for a second peak.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#171 Postby TorSkk » Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:12 am

Weather Dude wrote:Down to 135kts now, but the forecast calls for a second peak when it nears the Philippines. Anything south of the forecast track could mean a super typhoon into northern Luzon. Just judging on IR, it appears the ERC is going pretty smoothly. If that's the case this could easily get back to Cat 5 for a second peak.


Yup if it does hit Luzon very likely it will be a cat5 landfall
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#172 Postby 1900hurricane » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:24 am

Last JTWC discussion mentioned the possibility of an eyewall meld, but I think a more traditional replacement cycle has taken place. A meld would be more characteristic of little change in satellite appearance since the inner eyewall remains largely unhindered. Here the eye clearly clouded over and appeared to briefly have a bigger footprint as it was reemerging, though it appears to have quickly contracted back to near the original size. So as said above, a pinhole that was replaced by a slightly larger pinhole. The entire footprint of this system is so ridiculously small, maybe the smallest I've ever track at these intensity ranges, or at least similar to Chebi '06 and Goni '20. Even if we had better MW coverage, good luck properly resolving what happened with our current fleet of MW imagers. I'm sure ATMS would be able to pick out all the fine nuanced details without any issue at all...

Long JTWC discussion below, with mentioned bit bolded:

WDPN32 PGTW 081500
MSGID/GENADMIN/JOINT TYPHOON WRNCEN PEARL HARBOR HI//
SUBJ/PROGNOSTIC REASONING FOR SUPER TYPHOON 19W (CHANTHU) WARNING NR
010//
RMKS/
1. FOR METEOROLOGISTS.
2. 6 HOUR SUMMARY AND ANALYSIS.

SUMMARY:
INITIAL POSITION: 15.5N 130.3E
INITIAL INTENSITY: 135 KTS
GEOGRAPHIC REFERENCE: 675 NM SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF KADENA AB
MOVEMENT PAST 6 HOURS: WESTWARD AT 10 KTS
SIGNIFICANT WAVE HEIGHT: 38 FEET

SATELLITE ANALYSIS, INITIAL POSITION AND INTENSITY DISCUSSION:
ANIMATED ENHANCED INFRARED (EIR) SATELLITE IMAGERY THROUGH THE
1200Z HOUR DEPICTS THE FILLING AND ENLARGING OF THE EYE, NOW
ESTIMATED AT 10NM WIDE, LIKELY THE RESULT OF AN EYEWALL REPLACEMENT
CYCLE (EWRC), THOUGH THE LACK OF RECENT MICROWAVE IMAGERY PRESENTS
CHALLENGES TO VERIFYING THAT THE EWRC HAS COMMENCED. ANOTHER
POSSIBILITY IS AN EYEWALL MELD, IN WHICH THE PREVIOUSLY OBSERVED
BAND OF CONVECTION DID NOT REPLACE THE ORIGINAL EYE, ONLY MERGED
WITH IT. ANIMATED 2-MIN HIMAWARI EIR IMAGERY SHOWED THE REAPPEARANCE
OF A VERY SMALL, WARM EYE BY 1400Z, WHICH COULD SUPPORT THE LATER
THEORY.
THE INITIAL POSITION IS ASSESSED WITH HIGH CONFIDENCE BASED
ON THE 10NM EYE IN EIR. THE INITIAL INTENSITY IS LOWERED TO 135
KNOTS AT 1200Z BASED ON THE SLIGHTLY DEGRADED PRESENTATION IN THE
EIR IMAGERY, BUT STILL ABOVE THE AGENCY AND OBJECTIVE ESTIMATES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT TO THE INITIAL INTENSITY ASSESSMENT IS PROVIDED
BY A 080917Z SENTINEL-1 SAR IMAGE WHICH INDICATED A FIX INTENSITY
OF 136 KNOTS WITH SOME DATA POINTS NEAR 145 KNOTS. HAVING REACHED
ITS FURTHEST EQUATORWARD POINT, STY 19W IS TRACKING WESTWARD ALONG
THE SOUTHERN PERIPHERY OF A DEEP-LAYER STR. SOME SHORT-TERM WOBBLE
IN THE TRACK IS EXPECTED, BUT OVERALL SHOULD AVERAGE WESTWARD. THE
ENVIRONMENT REMAINS HIGHLY FAVORABLE WITH LOW VWS, GOOD RADIAL
OUTFLOW AND WARM, HIGH OHC WATERS.

INITIAL WIND RADII BASIS: SCATTEROMETER DATA, SAR DATA.

CURRENT STEERING MECHANISM: DEEP-LAYER SUBTROPICAL RIDGE (STR) TO
THE NORTH.

AGENCY DVORAK AND AUTOMATED FIXES:
PGTW: T6.5 - 127 KTS
RJTD: T6.0 - 115 KTS
KNES: T6.5 - 127 KTS
CIMSS SATCON: 111 KTS AT 081036Z
CIMSS ADT: 115 KTS AT 081140Z

FORECASTER ASSESSMENT OF CURRENT ENVIRONMENT: HIGHLY FAVORABLE
VWS: 5-10 KTS
SST: 29-30 CELSIUS
OUTFLOW: MODERATE RADIAL
OTHER FACTORS: EYEWALL REPLACEMENT CYCLE.

ANALYSIS CONFIDENCE:
INITIAL POSITION: HIGH
INITIAL INTENSITY: HIGH
INITIAL WIND RADII: HIGH

3. FORECAST REASONING.

SIGNIFICANT FORECAST CHANGES: THERE ARE NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO
THE FORECAST FROM THE PREVIOUS WARNING.

FORECAST DISCUSSION: STY 19W LOOKS TO BE ON A FIRM WESTWARD TRACK,
ALONG THE SOUTH SIDE OF A DEEP STR TO THE NORTH, THOUGH SHORT-TERM
WOBBLES ABOUT THE MEAN MOTION VECTOR ARE EXPECTED. OVER THE NEXT 12
HOURS THE STR CENTER IS FORECAST TO MOVE EAST TO NEAR THE 140
LONGITUDE AND BECOME A BIT MORE ELONGATED NORTHWEST-SOUTHEAST,
ALLOWING FOR STY 19W TO TURN NORTHWESTWARD BY TAU 24. THE SYSTEM IS
EXPECTED TO PASS CLOSE TO THE NORTHEASTERN TIP OF LUZON BY 48, BUT
AT THIS POINT IS EXPECTED TO REMAIN JUST OFFSHORE. STARTING AROUND
TAU 48, A WEAK MID-LATITUDE TROUGH IS EXPECTED TO TRANSIT NORTH OF
THE RIDGE. WHILE WEAK, IT HAS JUST ENOUGH DYNAMIC SUPPORT TO ERODE
THE RIDGE ENOUGH FOR A BREAK TO DEVELOP NORTH OF TAIWAN. STY 19W
WILL RESPOND BY TURNING POLEWARD AFTER TAU 72, MAKING LANDFALL
ALONG THE SOUTHEAST CHINA COAST BETWEEN TAU 96 AND 120. DUE TO THE
ONGOING EWRC, STY 19W IS EXPECTED TO CONTINUE WEAKENING OVER THE
NEXT 24 HOURS, DOWN TO 120 KNOTS. AFTER COMPLETION OF THE EWRC, THE
SYSTEM SHOULD REINTENSIFY AS IT MOVES OVER A POOL OF HIGH OHC WATER
OFF THE COAST OF LUZON, REACHING A PEAK OF 130 KNOTS BY TAU 48. THE
UNCERTAIN TIMING OF EWRC COMPLETION, AND THE POTENTIAL FOR A SECOND
EWRC COULD RESULT IN LARGE FLUCTUATIONS IN THE INTENSITY OVER THE
NEXT 24 TO 36 HOURS. AFTER TAU 72 INCREASING VWS AND DECREASING
UPPER-LEVEL OUTFLOW WILL FACILITATE A FAIRLY RAPID WEAKENING TREND,
ACCELERATING AFTER LANDFALL.

MODEL DISCUSSION: TRACK GUIDANCE IS IN VERY GOOD AGREEMENT THROUGH
TAU 48, WITH THE NOTABLE EXCEPTION OF JGSM WHICH TURNS THE SYSTEM
SHARPLY POLEWARD AFTER TAU 24. THE REMAINDER OF THE GUIDANCE
DISPLAYS A 80NM SPREAD AT TAU 48. THE SPREAD IN THE GUIDANCE
INCREASES SHARPLY AFTER TAU 72, UP TO 760NM BETWEEN THE GFS AND
GALWEM OUTLIERS AT TAU 120. THE MAJORITY OF THE GUIDANCE IS BITING
ON THE SYSTEM MOVING POLEWARD INTO THE BREAK IN THE RIDGE AFTER TAU
72, THOUGH THE NAVGEM, GALWEM AND HWRF INDICATE AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT
OF TURN, AS IS EXPECTED WITH THESE MODELS WHICH HAVE A STRONG
POLEWARD BIAS. THE GFS MEANWHILE DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF THE BREAK
IN THE RIDGE, AND KEEPS THE SYSTEM ON A WESTWARD TRACK TO THE
VICINITY OF HONG KONG BY TAU 120. ADDITIONAL UNCERTAINTY IS
INTRODUCED WHEN LOOKING AT THE GFS AND ECMWF ENSEMBLES. THE
ENSEMBLE MEMBERS OF BOTH MODELS ARE ROUGHLY EVENLY SPLIT IN A
BIFURCATION BETWEEN THE TWO SCENARIOS DESCRIBED ABOVE. THE JTWC
FORECAST REMAINS CONSISTENT WITH THE PREVIOUS FORECASTS, BUT MOVES
SLIGHTLY CLOSER TO TAIWAN, ON THE SOUTHWESTERN EDGE OF THE TIGHTEST
GROUPING OF TRACKERS. WHILE THERE IS HIGH CONFIDENCE IN THE TRACK
THROUGH TAU 48, THERE IN LOW CONFIDENCE THEREAFTER IN LIGHT OF THE
UNCERTAINTY DESCRIBED ABOVE. INTENSITY GUIDANCE IS IN GENERAL
AGREEMENT ON THE TRENDS AND THE JTWC FORECAST CLOSELY TRACKS THE
HWRF SOLUTION THROUGH TAU 48 AND THE GFS SHIPS THEREAFTER. THERE
IS LOW CONFIDENCE IN THE FORECAST INTENSITY DUE TO THE UNCERTAINTY
SURROUNDING THE EWRC AND THE SUBSEQUENT IMPACT ON LATER
INTENSITIES.

FORECAST CONFIDENCE:
TRACK 0 - 72 HR: HIGH
TRACK 72-120 HR: LOW
INTENSITY 0 - 72 HR: LOW
INTENSITY 72-120 HR: LOW//
NNNN
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#173 Postby aspen » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:33 am

Chanthu’s eye is clearing and clouding so many times, it looks like it’s winking on IR imagery.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#174 Postby NotoSans » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:49 am

Chanthu’s upper-level outflow is less impressive than before, which may help explain why it’s struggling to re-clear out its eye.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#175 Postby Hayabusa » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:08 pm

According to this graphic, Chanthu will traverse very high OHC with some maxed out OHC values :double:
Image
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#176 Postby Sciencerocks » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:17 pm

Image
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#177 Postby ElectricStorm » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:43 pm

The eye is clearing out again so it might be a little stronger than this but since it just completed an ERC I don't mind 135kts for now. Should be Cat 5 again soon though.

19W CHANTHU 210908 1800 15.4N 129.1E WPAC 135 929
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#178 Postby Yellow Evan » Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:51 pm

TXPQ29 KNES 081859
TCSWNP

A. 19W (CHANTHU)

B. 08/1730Z

C. 15.4N

D. 129.1E

E. ONE/HIMAWARI-8

F. T7.0/7.0

G. IR/EIR/SWIR

H. REMARKS...SYSTEM HAS AN OW EYE TEMP, CMG RING TEMP, AND IS EMBEDDED
IN WHITE RESULTING IN AN EYE PATTERN DT OF 6.5. THE 1646Z AMSR2 89
GHZ MW PASS REVEALS A SHARP PINHOLE EYE WITH A ROBUST RING OF BANDING
OCCURRING AROUND THE LLCC. SYSTEM ADDITIONALLY HAS A COMMA SHAPE ON EIR
IMAGERY. FT IS BASED ON MET DUE TO UNCERTAINTY IN THE CLOUD FEATURES
THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH SENSITIVITY OF THE EYE TEMPERATURE.

I. ADDL POSITIONS

NIL


...PATEL


SAB getting clever.
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#179 Postby aspen » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:12 pm

A massive outer eyewall is building. It’s been several hours since this pass, but the inner eye remains the dominant eye. It won’t be long before the outer eyewall takes over.
Image
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Re: WPAC: CHANTHU - Typhoon

#180 Postby Kingarabian » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:19 pm

WAcyclone wrote:SMAP got it but it looks like the extremely small core may have been undersampled by the instrument. The highest pixel value windspeed obtained was about 88 kt 10-minute (~98 kt 1 minute). Nothing can replace recon, unfortunately.

https://i.imgur.com/JlFiSb1.jpg

Yeah unfortunately SMAP is pretty inaccurate.
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