2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3041 Postby Hammy » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:16 pm

JuracánBori wrote:

I would find 1988 hurricane season difficult of an analog for this year. That year had a relatively active August with 4 NS. We should see.


Debby was named Sep 1 and Chris on Aug 28, so up to this point there had been two. Also worth noting 1988's early August activity was from a stalled trough, where this year the troughs have not made it as far off the coast before stalling out--they've either been well inland or just moved off the east coast and kept going.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3042 Postby SFLcane » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:18 pm

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2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3043 Postby skyline385 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:21 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
KWT wrote:
JuracánBori wrote:I would find 1988 hurricane season difficult of an analog for this year. That year had a relatively active August with 4 NS. We should see.


The ACE for this time in 1988 was even lower than 2022. Most of those storms were very brief spin ups and it took until the very end of August to get a stronger system (and even then it did nearly of its main strengthening in September.

88 makes alot of sense at the moment. Above average bit not the hyperactive season that was previously forecasted.


Image

While it wasn't a hyperactive season, I am on the firm belief that 1988 could have easily been much more active and intense had it occurred during a warm AMO phase. Just by looking at the progression of the season (and especially considering how it was able to produce menances like Gilbert and Joan without difficulty), one would have to wonder if it could have snuck in like 2 or so more majors if it were to occur like in the present day. Much like years like 2008 or 2021, I view 1988 as a good example of a season that, had it have had a slightly different setup, would have easily attained hyperactive status.

Don’t think it’s as simple as that, lot of other factors into play. We don’t know how strong the MJO/CCKW was during September, don’t know if 1988 had dry air / strong TUTT / wavebreaking issues. The vertical instability right now seems to be at its lowest in the current AMO period so that is another factor keep in mind.


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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3044 Postby Category5Kaiju » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:54 pm

 https://twitter.com/dmorris9661/status/1561796873886859271




Yeah, it's still a bit early and we will see what the next 15 or so days will bring, but if this season does end up acting like this, then you can bet that a lot of attitudes toward how the Atlantic works are going to be fundamentally changed forever, let alone a myriad of future studies and extensive research conducted on this season alone. I think we've gotten pretty accustomed to the 2013 debacle, but for a solid weak La Nina, warm MDR, +AMO season to underperform like this (let alone where above-average indicators still existed late in the summer and where most of the other cyclone basins aren't very active either) would be an even weirder wrench that is thrown into the system. In other words, I feel that after 2013, people have gotten more careful about predicting seasonal activity, and there are certain factors such as the presence of a La Nina or warm MDR sst anomalies that we have ever since (and before) taken for granted that would almost certainly encourage high levels of tropical activity. It remains to be seen what this year has in store, but a 2022 bust, imho would be even stranger than a 2013 bust especially given how that would basically mean directly bypassing the La Nina/warm MDR/other-basins-inactive "filter."
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3045 Postby aspen » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:20 pm

When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3046 Postby Hammy » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:44 pm

aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Personally I started wondering around mid-August, when the models showed two stronger storms developing in the MDR and Gulf (and we're talking within 72-96 hour timeframe, not the 'fantasy range' we're seeing this year) and these systems just petered out--one became Erin (fairly weak) and the other succumbed to a fall-like north-south oriented cold front (which also brought temps in the mid-60s for highs for two days in Georgia)

Two things later made it very clear though--in late August, we finally had a couple of strong waves that were expected to emerge. Low latitude, closed-low (as opposed to this year's monsoonal mess) but the steering currents seemed almost nonexistent and they couldn't even exit into the Atlantic, instead dissipating inland just on the coast. The other was the winter-esque 500mb lows we were seeing over the lower latitudes of the Atlantic (15-20N) in which Humberto was steered almost straight north.

It's kind of interesting 2013 was stuck in a springtime pattern, but now I wonder, is something similar, but opposite, happening--the Atlantic now seems perpetually stuck in June/early July pattern while the western basin is stuck in an El Nino like state (complete with large moisture flow over the Southeastern US) courtesy of the warm band along the equatorial East Pacific

That said, as a large part of the problem right now is the monsoon trough being farther north than it should be, it's bringing these waves closer to the drier air of the subtropics and the TUTT--but this is almost assured to drop south as the seasons change so while we could see a storm-free August, at the moment I feel if anything it's merely an extension of June conditions until the monsoon trough finally drops farther south.

Something else worth noting, the CFS since mid-July has been pushing back the switch flip--but it's pushing it back less and less each week. Two weeks ago it was consistently showing around August 20, last week it was consistently showing August 25, now it's showing August 27. Based on this I would say we'll see some development around Aug 28-Sep 1 and a possibly slower but steady uptick after as the waves can come off further south, though with the TUTT being where it's at we'll probably see a lot of weaker systems/recurves as with 2000.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3047 Postby Stormybajan » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:55 pm

Patrick99 wrote:I've been noticing something on the SAL loops for most of this season - it looks like the dry air has been oriented NE to SW most of the time, really drilling down into the ITCZ, killing waves and squashing their moisture feed into a thin line. In other seasons I seem to recall the dry air being oriented more E-W, just coming off the coast and floating above the tropical waves.

On the latest loop, it looks like that is starting to happen more.....dry air still there of course but starting to just slide off Africa east to west without as much of that north/south component. Maybe this will give the waves more of a chance.


I agree with this FULLY. Been watching it most of this season and it definitely seemed like SAL itself wasnt thicker than normal but the direction it was heading in to the SW most of the time would just kill any tropical wave coming off (Also seems like the waves have been coming off slightly more north than usual too). It looks like the SW movement has calmed down now as you just said. This is unrelated but I wonder if that thing the ICON is showing could cause some noise? Not sure about if this "cold surge" has ever resulted in TC genesis before though (especially in the eastern caribbean)
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3048 Postby NotSparta » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:26 pm

aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Why is everyone talking about October 2021 all of a sudden? It's not really relevant since it's not 2021 anymore
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3049 Postby LemieT » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:40 pm

Hammy wrote:
aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Personally I started wondering around mid-August, when the models showed two stronger storms developing in the MDR and Gulf (and we're talking within 72-96 hour timeframe, not the 'fantasy range' we're seeing this year) and these systems just petered out--one became Erin (fairly weak) and the other succumbed to a fall-like north-south oriented cold front (which also brought temps in the mid-60s for highs for two days in Georgia)

Two things later made it very clear though--in late August, we finally had a couple of strong waves that were expected to emerge. Low latitude, closed-low (as opposed to this year's monsoonal mess) but the steering currents seemed almost nonexistent and they couldn't even exit into the Atlantic, instead dissipating inland just on the coast. The other was the winter-esque 500mb lows we were seeing over the lower latitudes of the Atlantic (15-20N) in which Humberto was steered almost straight north.

It's kind of interesting 2013 was stuck in a springtime pattern, but now I wonder, is something similar, but opposite, happening--the Atlantic now seems perpetually stuck in June/early July pattern while the western basin is stuck in an El Nino like state (complete with large moisture flow over the Southeastern US) courtesy of the warm band along the equatorial East Pacific

That said, as a large part of the problem right now is the monsoon trough being farther north than it should be, it's bringing these waves closer to the drier air of the subtropics and the TUTT--but this is almost assured to drop south as the seasons change so while we could see a storm-free August, at the moment I feel if anything it's merely an extension of June conditions until the monsoon trough finally drops farther south.

Something else worth noting, the CFS since mid-July has been pushing back the switch flip--but it's pushing it back less and less each week. Two weeks ago it was consistently showing around August 20, last week it was consistently showing August 25, now it's showing August 27. Based on this I would say we'll see some development around Aug 28-Sep 1 and a possibly slower but steady uptick after as the waves can come off further south, though with the TUTT being where it's at we'll probably see a lot of weaker systems/recurves as with 2000.


Just today I had a similar thought. Much of the weather have been stuck in a late spring/early summer pattern and I wonder if that will change over in SON with maybe a truncated window of development compared to most years.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3050 Postby Hammy » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:53 pm

Stormybajan wrote:This is unrelated but I wonder if that thing the ICON is showing could cause some noise? Not sure about if this "cold surge" has ever resulted in TC genesis before though (especially in the eastern caribbean)


While I can't guarantee this was the cause, there are numerous instances of weaker-looking waves spinning up seemingly right at 60W, and in a somewhat sudden manner that was outside of the progression you'd expect over the open Atlantic. There has seemed to be some sort of southern inflow that's been the final ingredient so to speak.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3051 Postby aspen » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:53 pm

NotSparta wrote:
aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Why is everyone talking about October 2021 all of a sudden? It's not really relevant since it's not 2021 anymore

It feels like something flipped after Sam and has continued into this season. October 2021 saw the Atlantic and West Pacific go dead silent while the EPac has unusually high hurricane activity for a La Niña fall, even though Pamela was an under-achiever. Fast forward to June-July 2022, and the same thing happened: marginal Atlantic activity, a dead WPac, and a very unusually active EPac for several weeks. Now the EPac has shut down and all three NHem basins haven’t been doing much until the WPac suddenly popped out two storms.

Maybe this is all just a symptom of a strong La Niña that refuses to go away. Maybe the October 2021 shutdown was just a coincidence and doesn’t have any impact on what’s going on right now.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3052 Postby Category5Kaiju » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:00 pm

You know, I gotta say, I sincerely believe that we're probably going to need a decent El Nino at some point to "reset" the global conditions. Imagine what 2023 would look like if it became a fourth year La Nina :D . For some reason, while the sample size is small, as we're seeing this year, what if third year La Ninas are indeed inherently slower than first/second year La Ninas?
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3053 Postby NotSparta » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:19 pm

aspen wrote:
NotSparta wrote:
aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Why is everyone talking about October 2021 all of a sudden? It's not really relevant since it's not 2021 anymore

It feels like something flipped after Sam and has continued into this season. October 2021 saw the Atlantic and West Pacific go dead silent while the EPac has unusually high hurricane activity for a La Niña fall, even though Pamela was an under-achiever. Fast forward to June-July 2022, and the same thing happened: marginal Atlantic activity, a dead WPac, and a very unusually active EPac for several weeks. Now the EPac has shut down and all three NHem basins haven’t been doing much until the WPac suddenly popped out two storms.

Maybe this is all just a symptom of a strong La Niña that refuses to go away. Maybe the October 2021 shutdown was just a coincidence and doesn’t have any impact on what’s going on right now.


Sounds like a coincidence
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3054 Postby skyline385 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:21 pm

NotSparta wrote:
skyline385 wrote:
Teban54 wrote:The original tweet also mentions reduced shear forecast by models, which may suggest wavebreaking being less of a concern by end August.


Yea I don't really trust Bulk shear forecasts for ensemble mean into the future. They always converge towards less shear at any point in the year as the ensemble members start cancelling each other out. Here's an example of current forecasted shear compared to one predicted a few days ago.

https://i.imgur.com/DfqMwmS.jpg


Looks pretty consistent to me


Its not, you can see the shear dropping off because of the dispersion & perturbations associated with various ensemble members. Here's Webb confirming the same.

 https://twitter.com/webberweather/status/1561712207796137988


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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3055 Postby tolakram » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:23 pm

IMO this is just a very strange look for this time of year. Count the upper level lows.

Image
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3056 Postby cycloneye » Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:15 pm

New video from Mark Sudduth that are always very good as he does great analisis in a clear way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ma52sJTa4
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3057 Postby Category5Kaiju » Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:41 pm

Maybe the bigger question we need to ask is this (and it's quite simple yet interesting to say the least): "why is this season suffering from mid-level dry air intrusions, moreso than previous years in recent times at least?"

From what I understand, this seems to be the main reason why we're seeing what we are seeing, but considering the otherwise very favorable background state such as with the warm MDR, weak La Nina, and typical SAL layer, it is genuinely alarming and quite strange to see this one isolated, particular aspect of the atmosphere behaving in this manner and being enough to shut down the entire basin. 2022 is definitely going to need to be looked at in more detail once it is over imho, and it's definitely among one of the most puzzling seasons I have personally ever tracked so far. If anything, I think what I have learned is how strong of an inhibiting factor dry air is; if anything, I'd even go so far as to argue that it's probably the most effective known way to suppress TC formation (as demonstrated with the recent events). I'm very curious to see how 2022 ends up, and I am sure we'll be talking about it quite a bit in the coming weeks and next year perhaps. The notion of a La Nina year with a warm MDR and an active wave train flopping spectacularly is not something I ever expected to be remotely possible ever since the day I first learned about those particular concepts of weather in my 5th grade physical geography class in 2011. :lol:
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3058 Postby dexterlabio » Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:43 pm

aspen wrote:
NotSparta wrote:
aspen wrote:When in 2013 did it become apparent that something was off and the season was going to bust? Indicators have been at least somewhat favorable (SSTA configuration, MJO/VP forcing, etc) all the way until now, despite other newly emerging aspects like excessive SAL for this time of the year and the potential for a storm-free August.

Also, a crazy idea as to what’s going on: what if the +AMO era ended in October 2021 and now the Atlantic is in a long-lasting suppressed base state?


Why is everyone talking about October 2021 all of a sudden? It's not really relevant since it's not 2021 anymore

It feels like something flipped after Sam and has continued into this season. October 2021 saw the Atlantic and West Pacific go dead silent while the EPac has unusually high hurricane activity for a La Niña fall, even though Pamela was an under-achiever. Fast forward to June-July 2022, and the same thing happened: marginal Atlantic activity, a dead WPac, and a very unusually active EPac for several weeks. Now the EPac has shut down and all three NHem basins haven’t been doing much until the WPac suddenly popped out two storms.

Maybe this is all just a symptom of a strong La Niña that refuses to go away. Maybe the October 2021 shutdown was just a coincidence and doesn’t have any impact on what’s going on right now.


All it took to shake things up in the global tropics was a big WWB/MJO wave that spawned two super typhoons in WPAC in December 2021. Looking back I think we haven’t got a good WBB event in the summer months this year. Maybe that is what we’ll need for either or both ATL and PAC to breathe to life.
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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3059 Postby NDG » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:31 am

Great tweet & discussion thread this morning from Dr Phil, this wave breaking pattern we have been since at least the middle of July has definitely thrown a monkey wrench to the forecast with a fairly quite August so far, but the ECMWF shows is about to change.

 https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1562039133698002944




 https://twitter.com/philklotzbach/status/1562042915064406017




 https://twitter.com/AndyHazelton/status/1562043541295177729


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Re: 2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

#3060 Postby tolakram » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:44 am

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