2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1901 Postby Teban54 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 1:36 pm

WiscoWx02 wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:Regardless of what's being talked about on other platforms and elsewhere here, I still can't shake off the fact that we had a Category 4 hurricane in the MDR in June, as well as the earliest Category 5 on record and with that storm ending up as a long-lived, Cape Verde hurricane. Of all the hurricane seasons I've personally tracked, this season, or so I would've thought at least, would be the least vulnerable to canceling :lol:

I'll pose this question: "do you honestly think Beryl happened for no reason or that it doesn't mean anything about this season's future potential?"


It could have. Weather is complete chaos, it doesn’t follow rules and analogues perfectly. I remember back in 2021 when Elsa formed, the only seasons that a hurricane had formed that early where Elsa did were hyperactive years but 2021 didn’t end up being hyperactive, breaking that mold. Not saying that will for sure happen this year, but I certainly wouldn’t say Beryl guarantees anything because nothing in weather is guaranteed.

FWIW, CSU's Phil Klotzbach disagrees with this sentiment, as their forecasts issued in both July and August explicitly mentioned Beryl as a harbinger of things to come. In contrast, despite Elsa in early July, CSU lowered the ACE forecast in August 2021 to below the hyperactivity threshold (from 160 to 150), because of some indicators that did not align with hyperactive seasons. That forecast verified quite well, as the 2021 season finished with 145 ACE.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1902 Postby skyline385 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 1:54 pm

WiscoWx02 wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:Regardless of what's being talked about on other platforms and elsewhere here, I still can't shake off the fact that we had a Category 4 hurricane in the MDR in June, as well as the earliest Category 5 on record and with that storm ending up as a long-lived, Cape Verde hurricane. Of all the hurricane seasons I've personally tracked, this season, or so I would've thought at least, would be the least vulnerable to canceling :lol:

I'll pose this question: "do you honestly think Beryl happened for no reason or that it doesn't mean anything about this season's future potential?"


I remember back in 2021 when Elsa formed, the only seasons that a hurricane had formed that early where Elsa did were hyperactive years but 2021 didn’t end up being hyperactive, breaking that mold


I do not believe that statistic is correct there. Elsa became a hurricane on July 02 and here are a few which became a hurricane much earlier but the season went to be normal or below:

1934 Central America hurricane became a hurricane on June 09 and that season had just 48 ACE.
Audrey 1957 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 84 ACE.
Bonnie 1986 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 36 ACE.

Regardless though, atleast in my opinion, a C5 which breaks multiple records carries more weight than a category one forming which are relatively easy. There has to be some weight assigned to different events and not all of them should be treated as the same imo.
Last edited by skyline385 on Sun Aug 18, 2024 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1903 Postby MarioProtVI » Sun Aug 18, 2024 1:56 pm

Teban54 wrote:
SNIP!

Finally, as a reward for you reaching here, here's a post from 2005 (that was also mentioned in the 2017 thread):

Wow, what a boring time!

Bro really dug back that far to own the downcasters *language* :lol: And you’re right as just like 2017 people are driving expectations down because August isn’t as active as they expected when the only negative it seems that’s causing us to be like this is a northwards ITCZ that will come down by the end of the month and then things really get going.
Last edited by tolakram on Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: remove giant quote and language. THINK BEFORE QUOTING A BOOK
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1904 Postby weeniepatrol » Sun Aug 18, 2024 1:58 pm

skyline385 wrote:
I do not believe that statistic is correct there.

1934 Central America hurricane became a hurricane on June 09 and that season had just 48 ACE.
Audrey 1957 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 84 ACE.
Bonnie 1986 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 36 ACE.

Regardless though, atleast in my opinion, a C5 which breaks multiple records carries more weight than a category one forming which are relatively easy. There has to be some weight assigned to different events and not all of them should be treated as the same imo.


I believe they meant hurricane east of the islands that early?
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1905 Postby skyline385 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:02 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:
skyline385 wrote:
I do not believe that statistic is correct there.

1934 Central America hurricane became a hurricane on June 09 and that season had just 48 ACE.
Audrey 1957 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 84 ACE.
Bonnie 1986 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 36 ACE.

Regardless though, atleast in my opinion, a C5 which breaks multiple records carries more weight than a category one forming which are relatively easy. There has to be some weight assigned to different events and not all of them should be treated as the same imo.


I believe they meant hurricane east of the islands that early?


Maybe but that is then a very specific statistic since early MDR activity is rare and then the only other hurricane season which had that happen is 1933. And a sample size of one isnt really the best to draw conclusions from.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1906 Postby weeniepatrol » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:02 pm

Image

LMAO, the ONLY shear in the tropical Atlantic is due to the African Easterly Jet :lol:
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1907 Postby cycloneye » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:03 pm

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1908 Postby skyline385 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:14 pm



That is actually favorable over the NATL, it is most active in phases 4 & 5 of the MJO and is not dependent on rising cell activity during peak season like the Pacific basin. A sinking cell like that also limits activity in the EPAC which again makes the NATL favorable.

Just another annual reminder that the Atlantic tends to be the most active when the descending phase of the MJO is entering the basin, like it will be in late August ( ~ Aug 25th ish) this year.

The impacts of lower deep-layer wind shear, reduced SAL intrusions, enhanced low-level relative vorticity from westerly wind anomalies, cumulative column water vapor in the preceding active phase, & the lagged effect of stronger AEWs moving out into the Atlantic are all more important than local vertical motion anomalies, especially near the peak of the hurricane season.


 https://x.com/webberweather/status/1821919755777012099


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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1909 Postby skyline385 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:23 pm

Since we are discussing about activity post switch flip here, 12z EPS popped again showing activity which means 0z was likely an anomaly looking at trends from previous runs

https://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopi ... 0#p3081480
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1910 Postby WiscoWx02 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:37 pm

skyline385 wrote:
WiscoWx02 wrote:
Category5Kaiju wrote:Regardless of what's being talked about on other platforms and elsewhere here, I still can't shake off the fact that we had a Category 4 hurricane in the MDR in June, as well as the earliest Category 5 on record and with that storm ending up as a long-lived, Cape Verde hurricane. Of all the hurricane seasons I've personally tracked, this season, or so I would've thought at least, would be the least vulnerable to canceling :lol:

I'll pose this question: "do you honestly think Beryl happened for no reason or that it doesn't mean anything about this season's future potential?"


I remember back in 2021 when Elsa formed, the only seasons that a hurricane had formed that early where Elsa did were hyperactive years but 2021 didn’t end up being hyperactive, breaking that mold


I do not believe that statistic is correct there. Elsa became a hurricane on July 02 and here are a few which became a hurricane much earlier but the season went to be normal or below:

1934 Central America hurricane became a hurricane on June 09 and that season had just 48 ACE.
Audrey 1957 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 84 ACE.
Bonnie 1986 became a hurricane on June 25 and that season had 36 ACE.

Regardless though, atleast in my opinion, a C5 which breaks multiple records carries more weight than a category one forming which are relatively easy. There has to be some weight assigned to different events and not all of them should be treated as the same imo.


Let me clarify a bit better…I was referring to hurricane in far eastern Caribbean Sea/central tropical Atlantic exclusively…I not basin wide. I remember the tweets and folks saying Elsa is in rare company only with hyperactive seasons given that it formed so far east.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1911 Postby Hammy » Sun Aug 18, 2024 2:48 pm

Teban54 wrote:Since the 2017 comparison has come up a lot in the discussions, I went back and quoted some (season cancel or borderline season cancel) comments from the 2017 indicators thread, between August 1 and August 30 when Irma formed.

Scroll down to August 16 if you want a shorter read; the peak season canceling occurred on August 19. (More stuff could be found by just extending the time frame to July 30, but I chose not to.)

Impressions:

[*] SAL also ended up being a significant issue for August 2017, but a few posters thought the SAL outbreaks could have been caused by the strong waves themselves. Specifically, it was also mentioned that waves were too far north.


I have wondered even then if there's something to this even then, there seems to (especially with more sample sizes) be a correlation between early MDR formation and the ITCZ being much farther north than normal--and the end result of this also leading to a significant lull or absence of activity until the end of August followed by more significant activity

1979 had Ana in June, two more storms in the first half of July, and then a depression in late July--and then literally nothing until August 25--after that four storms developed in the following ten days (though activity was cut short early that year by El Nino's quick onset, similarly to 2006)

1996 had Bertha in early July, early season major hurricane similar to Beryl, followed by Cesar in late July--then we had, again, literally nothing between July 28 and Aug 19, after which four storms formed in a week (though 1996 featured an unusual lull between Hortense and Isidore)

2000 had TD2 out in the far eastern Atlantic in late June, absolutely nothing in July, and then, Alberto aside (lasting 22 days) had a very underperforming August: Beryl was forecast to be a hurricane and only reached 50mph, Chris lasted a day despite a near hurricane intensity forecast, and Debby's infamous forecasting bust, and then from Aug 24 to Sep 10, only one short-lived storm formed--then we had seven storms from Sep 11-Oct 5 (and even more after)

2005 had Dennis and Emily before July 10, and despite storms forming during August, still drastically underperformed--Irene struggled to maintain tropical storm intensity for days (even being flung north of 20N pretty far to the east) and only short-lived systems after that, up until Aug 22 when Katrina formed

2010 had a system in June that was arguably a tropical depression so I'm going to count it here for the sake of data completion--we had a (near) major hurricane in June, and then two weak tropical storms in late July/early August, followed by, again, nothing--and then once Danielle formed on Aug 21, we had six storms in the next two weeks (and the season remained active throughout--but it is worth noting 2010 had the strongest La Nina of this sample

2017 had Bret and TD4 in the MDR before July 4 and, as the quoted post turns out, the MDR drastically underperformed until pretty much the end of August

2018 had Beryl (as a hurricane) in the first few days of July out in the MDR, and then after Chris a few days later, the Atlantic was completely dead, save for to cutoff-low induced storms in early August--then things woke up at the start of September

2022, now infamous for having nothing during August and most of July, had Bonnie--despite not developing until the Caribbean, it formed from a well developed late June wave, before things took off in September (Bonnie's struggles did herald the difficulties most MDR storms would have that year)

2023 had not one, but two MDR storms (one of which was almost a hurricane), one hurricane in July (in the subtropics) but otherwise nothing after that, and then the switch flipped and then some around August 20


The two years that stand out are 2008, which had generally consistent development through the season (save for the two weeks in early to mid September) having generally no more than ten days pass between development, and 2021, a year that had a significant quantity over quality nature and largely constant development during August and September, given the vast majority of storms that year (with some very obvious exceptions) struggled or underperformed, and the season cut off after September for still unclear reasons
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1912 Postby WaveBreaking » Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:28 pm

Hammy wrote:...and 2021, a year that had a significant quantity over quality nature and largely constant development during August and September, given the vast majority of storms that year (with some very obvious exceptions) struggled or underperformed, and the season cut off after September for still unclear reasons


iirc 2021 shut down in the late season bc of a TUTT that parked over the Caribbean in October and sheared any wave or CAG disturbance that passed through.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1913 Postby ScottNAtlanta » Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:17 pm

Here is a little nugget for ya'll to cogitate on...
With the global temperatures increasing due to (choose your cause...but it is happening) it reminds me of some reading I have done about the "Green Sahara" when the last Milankovitch Cycle had the Earth closer to the Sun. For whatever reason...a hotter Sahara becomes wetter. Now we are no where near the apex of this cycle now, but we are warming the planet to the point of it possibly mimicking the apex. Here we have seen the ITCZ more north than usual several seasons now (as compared to the recorded records kept). Perhaps this is a harbinger of a wetter Sahara. There was recently rain in southern Egypt, which is literally almost unheard of this time of year.
Just something to think about...
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1914 Postby weeniepatrol » Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:31 pm

ScottNAtlanta wrote:Here is a little nugget for ya'll to cogitate on...
With the global temperatures increasing due to (choose your cause...but it is happening) it reminds me of some reading I have done about the "Green Sahara" when the last Milankovitch Cycle had the Earth closer to the Sun. For whatever reason...a hotter Sahara becomes wetter. Now we are no where near the apex of this cycle now, but we are warming the planet to the point of it possibly mimicking the apex. Here we have seen the ITCZ more north than usual several seasons now (as compared to the recorded records kept). Perhaps this is a harbinger of a wetter Sahara. There was recently rain in southern Egypt, which is literally almost unheard of this time of year.
Just something to think about...


My thoughts are that the Greening of the Sahara would decrease surface temperatures there. This means a decreasing temperature difference between the equator/Gulf of Guinea and the current Sahara region. This would have massive implications on the monsoon and atmospheric circulations. As far as I know tropical waves might actually become weaker. The Tropical Easterly Jet is driven in large part by that temperature difference.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1915 Postby tolakram » Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:21 pm

Most of this sounds like a bunch of junk to me :lol:

I'm a broken record but why not.

You can't predict an outlier
The numbers for this season will be lower than predicted -- I've changed this from 'disappoint' to clarify my intent.

I still think people read this and think season cancel for some reason.

Current: 5/3/1
Forecast: 23/12/6

Left to go: 17/8/5

Image


2017 had the advantage of small storms earlier to pad the numbers and was at 7/3/1 by the end of August.

Image

If this season is exactly like 2017 then we can expect 9/7/5 the rest of the way, ending up with 14/10/6

Will this season be worse than 2017 in the final 4 months? I do not know, but I DO doubt the top line storm number.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1916 Postby Hammy » Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:08 pm

WaveBreaking wrote:
Hammy wrote:...and 2021, a year that had a significant quantity over quality nature and largely constant development during August and September, given the vast majority of storms that year (with some very obvious exceptions) struggled or underperformed, and the season cut off after September for still unclear reasons


iirc 2021 shut down in the late season bc of a TUTT that parked over the Caribbean in October and sheared any wave or CAG disturbance that passed through.


I do recall that (I'd forgotten when I posted) but I still don't recall if there was a background reason--some examples being, 2013 we know was the thermohaline circulation, 2022 having nothing in August was a combination of the monsoon trough and the SST anomaly pattern inducing large amounts of wave breaking, and 2007 underperforming had something to do with Indian Ocean convection (anomalously high in the west and over India, anomalously low in the east and over Indonesia)
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1917 Postby weeniepatrol » Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:15 pm

I did think some of the forecasts were a bit ridiculous, like UPenn calling for 29-33 named storms or whatever. Always thought this to be a quality over quantity season
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1918 Postby skyline385 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:22 pm

weeniepatrol wrote:I did think some of the forecasts were a bit ridiculous, like UPenn calling for 29-33 named storms or whatever. Always thought this to be a quality over quantity season


Honestly no one should be taking that forecast seriously, UKMET is also another one that tends to be ridiculous with their numbers and ACE. The gold standard for forecasts for NATL is CSU and of course the NOAA. Those are the numbers which I always look at for a season, everything else is just optional.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1919 Postby WeatherBoy2000 » Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:34 pm

Context: I'm continuing a discussion from the global models thread because it's more appropriate here

Jr0d wrote:
DunedinDave wrote:Surprised that we are on the verge of entering the peak of what’s supposed to be an extremely busy hurricane season and it doesn’t seem like any of the major models are predicting anything over the next couple of weeks. Really thought there would be storms popping up everywhere on the models but doesn’t look that way.


Give it a week or 2...

Even in 2005 folks, shortly before Katrina...heck even when Katrina was a tropical storm east of Florida and 'under performing' we heard the same stuff...every hyperactive season seems to have a few weeks that are uneventful despite being peak season. [b]


This is very true for the most part, you can find hyperactive seasons with breaks extending as long as two weeks or more in development:

For example, in 1998 you can see a noticeable break in early September with only Frances developing:

Image

1995 had a rather quiet early to mid-September with only Marilyn developing:

Image

2010 had a relatively quiet period between Danielle/Earl and Igor/Karl/Julia:

Image

You can see breaks like these with most seasons, not just hyperactive ones.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#1920 Postby Teban54 » Mon Aug 19, 2024 1:27 am

USTropics wrote:I've looked into the African InterTropical Front (ITF) position since 1990, and the mean eastern extent is significantly farther north compared to climatology for the first 10 days of August. The average mean position is currently at 19.95N, with the only year surpassing this being 2023 (20.45). List of years where the eastern extent was this far north:

[Full post here]

Hammy wrote:I have wondered even then if there's something to this even then, there seems to (especially with more sample sizes) be a correlation between early MDR formation and the ITCZ being much farther north than normal--and the end result of this also leading to a significant lull or absence of activity until the end of August followed by more significant activity

[Full post here]

Inspired by the two posts above, I made a scatter plot of ACE vs. the ITCZ positions of whichever years I can find. I'm sure someone else can do the analysis in a much more rigorous and complete fashion than I have, since I was manually scraping the data from Wayback Machine. (Historical data is available if you reach out to them, but I didn't. This might also be why my data is slightly different from USTropics's, particularly for 2020, if they recalibrated the data later.)

For August 1-10 positions: (I didn't move the data labels manually, so they always refer to the dot below the label. 2024 is at the bottom with 0 ACE just for easy reference.)

Image

I only glanced at the data, but my impression is that there doesn't seem to be a clear correlation, if at all. The years with an August lull that Hammy mentioned seemed to be all over the place in both the western and eastern extents, with some of them (1996, 2000) even having the southernmost ITCZ. Not all years with the ITCZ displaced to the north had the issue of waves coming off too far north or a lack of MDR activity, either.

I also plotted September 1-10, and there doesn't seem to be much of a correlation either:

Image
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