2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2261 Postby WeatherBoy2000 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 3:57 pm

psyclone wrote:I'm starting to think something might be off and the seasonal forecasting brain trust industrial complex could take a category 5 credibility hit. That's what makes the weather interesting and fun. Maybe as we get into fall and upper levels cool we can get some instability and some storms. In the meantime...not worrying about a monster storm system is a luxury I definitely did not anticipate. I guess we don't know what we don't know...but there's a lot of missing pieces..


With each passing day it looks like CSU/others are going to take a reputation hit. I can't blame them for predicting the season that they did, everything seemed to be in place for it. I wonder if this will trigger agencies to be more conservative in their predictions going forward.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2262 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 28, 2024 4:02 pm

WeatherBoy2000 wrote:
psyclone wrote:I'm starting to think something might be off and the seasonal forecasting brain trust industrial complex could take a category 5 credibility hit. That's what makes the weather interesting and fun. Maybe as we get into fall and upper levels cool we can get some instability and some storms. In the meantime...not worrying about a monster storm system is a luxury I definitely did not anticipate. I guess we don't know what we don't know...but there's a lot of missing pieces..


With each passing day it looks like CSU/others are going to take a reputation hit. I can't blame them for predicting the season that they did, everything seemed to be in place for it. I wonder if this will trigger agencies to be more conservative in their predictions going forward.


I think that's a little over the top, but it is a fact that after 2013 CSU lost a major source of funding and had to scramble to replace it. It wasn't all due to the forecast, but a big chunk was. I'm hoping funders understand that hurricane forecasting has a long way to go, and the fact everyone started out wrong is a pretty big deal IMO, it's not just CSU.

This post will look pretty silly though if 3 weeks from now we're staring down 3 storms threatening someone.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2263 Postby cycloneye » Wed Aug 28, 2024 4:09 pm

Something to watch down the road.

 https://x.com/AndyHazelton/status/1828898625101189218




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Beryl arrived earlier in the season when the tropopause was cooler, the ITCZ was lower latitude, and dry air intrusions hadn't really started yet. It's not inconceivable we will see those conditions come together again later in the season as things shift around.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2264 Postby Hammy » Wed Aug 28, 2024 4:17 pm

cycloneye wrote:Something to watch down the road.

 https://x.com/AndyHazelton/status/1828898625101189218




@AndyHazelton
Beryl arrived earlier in the season when the tropopause was cooler, the ITCZ was lower latitude, and dry air intrusions hadn't really started yet. It's not inconceivable we will see those conditions come together again later in the season as things shift around.


This is along the lines of what I was wondering over the last few years--were the two storms in June last year, and Beryl this year, a sign we're going to have two separate MDR peaks--one in June/July, and then another in mid to late September/October, while we start seeing a drop in the August averages (bimodal I think a few people called it?)
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2265 Postby mitchell » Wed Aug 28, 2024 4:36 pm

tolakram wrote:
WeatherBoy2000 wrote:
psyclone wrote:I'm starting to think something might be off and the seasonal forecasting brain trust industrial complex could take a category 5 credibility hit. That's what makes the weather interesting and fun. Maybe as we get into fall and upper levels cool we can get some instability and some storms. In the meantime...not worrying about a monster storm system is a luxury I definitely did not anticipate. I guess we don't know what we don't know...but there's a lot of missing pieces..


With each passing day it looks like CSU/others are going to take a reputation hit. I can't blame them for predicting the season that they did, everything seemed to be in place for it. I wonder if this will trigger agencies to be more conservative in their predictions going forward.


I think that's a little over the top, but it is a fact that after 2013 CSU lost a major source of funding and had to scramble to replace it. It wasn't all due to the forecast, but a big chunk was. I'm hoping funders understand that hurricane forecasting has a long way to go, and the fact everyone started out wrong is a pretty big deal IMO, it's not just CSU.

This post will look pretty silly though if 3 weeks from now we're staring down 3 storms threatening someone.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if 3 weeks from now 3 more storms have formed and they threaten someone, wouldn't that mean that we would be just past the peak of the hurricane season with 8 named storms? The season forecast criticism posts would still be valid, would they not?
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2266 Postby WaveBreaking » Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:15 pm

Hammy wrote:
cycloneye wrote:Something to watch down the road.

 https://x.com/AndyHazelton/status/1828898625101189218




@AndyHazelton
Beryl arrived earlier in the season when the tropopause was cooler, the ITCZ was lower latitude, and dry air intrusions hadn't really started yet. It's not inconceivable we will see those conditions come together again later in the season as things shift around.


This is along the lines of what I was wondering over the last few years--were the two storms in June last year, and Beryl this year, a sign we're going to have two separate MDR peaks--one in June/July, and then another in mid to late September/October, while we start seeing a drop in the August averages (bimodal I think a few people called it?)


To add on, the MDR kept wanting to develop waves until El Niño completely shut it down in late October last year. This year, we will be going into the part of the year where La Niña’s favorability really begins to shine, meaning that we could see a significantly extended CV season along with the usual CAG shenanigans.
Last edited by WaveBreaking on Fri Aug 30, 2024 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2267 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:43 pm

mitchell wrote:
tolakram wrote:
WeatherBoy2000 wrote:
With each passing day it looks like CSU/others are going to take a reputation hit. I can't blame them for predicting the season that they did, everything seemed to be in place for it. I wonder if this will trigger agencies to be more conservative in their predictions going forward.


I think that's a little over the top, but it is a fact that after 2013 CSU lost a major source of funding and had to scramble to replace it. It wasn't all due to the forecast, but a big chunk was. I'm hoping funders understand that hurricane forecasting has a long way to go, and the fact everyone started out wrong is a pretty big deal IMO, it's not just CSU.

This post will look pretty silly though if 3 weeks from now we're staring down 3 storms threatening someone.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if 3 weeks from now 3 more storms have formed and they threaten someone, wouldn't that mean that we would be just past the peak of the hurricane season with 8 named storms? The season forecast criticism posts would still be valid, would they not?


I can't answer for you, for me it will matter how strong as I do not believe in the numbers. The forecast message is conditions are ripe for major impacts. If we get major impacts but miss some statistic I know it won't matter much to me, but that's just me. I have been posting all season about how these numbers can do nothing BUT fail, and if you accidentally gamify a system you can expect the same kind of reaction as one might from a game. Just a few posts above compared the season to a football game.

If all the agencies get it horribly wrong what is the criticism besides the fact most of our long range tools stink?
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Re: RE: Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2268 Postby jlauderdal » Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:48 pm

mitchell wrote:
tolakram wrote:
WeatherBoy2000 wrote:
With each passing day it looks like CSU/others are going to take a reputation hit. I can't blame them for predicting the season that they did, everything seemed to be in place for it. I wonder if this will trigger agencies to be more conservative in their predictions going forward.


I think that's a little over the top, but it is a fact that after 2013 CSU lost a major source of funding and had to scramble to replace it. It wasn't all due to the forecast, but a big chunk was. I'm hoping funders understand that hurricane forecasting has a long way to go, and the fact everyone started out wrong is a pretty big deal IMO, it's not just CSU.

This post will look pretty silly though if 3 weeks from now we're staring down 3 storms threatening someone.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but if 3 weeks from now 3 more storms have formed and they threaten someone, wouldn't that mean that we would be just past the peak of the hurricane season with 8 named storms? The season forecast criticism posts would still be valid, would they not?
We get a 4-5 land falling in a populated area, the numbers miss will become a faded memory. They will miss on the number but we still have a long way to go to avoid major issues that really matter. Beryl was a mean storm, thats one for this season, more coming.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2269 Postby Teban54 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:57 pm

My current impression is that most of the negatives that people have identified (regardless of how influential they are) should go away with time -- it's just a question of how soon they do.

  • Northward displaced ITCZ, which sends waves into cooler, dryer parts of the Atlantic? Climo says it always moves back south as the season progresses (and the eastern ITCZ over Africa has already done so).
  • Overly strong African Easterly Jet? It also gets weaker over time as per climo, and models are hinting at that.
  • Warm tropopause? They will cool down more quickly than the ocean does.
  • El Nino-like mid-latitude atmosphere (if we agree with a single tweet from Andy Hazelton about it)? SOI is positive now, in line with a classic La Nina, so the atmosphere should respond soon. (I'd also say wind shear patterns so far already resembles much more of a La Nina than an El Nino.)
The only thing that seems less certain is upper-level patterns in the extratropics, being it a persistent +NAO or a Scandinavian block. However, not only is that not universally agreed upon, but current NAO forecasts show a return to neutral or slightly negative, so there are hints that whatever pattern that may have dumped dry air southward into the Atlantic could also be changing soon.

It's important to remember that many solidly positive factors for seasonal activity are still in place. The MDR is still anomalously warm with record OHC; shear is still generally low across the tropical Atlantic; and we still have healthy waves emerging from Africa. Currently, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't continue to cooperate once the other inhibiting factors -- whatever they are -- start fading away. (Plus, if people are making the argument that "waters are always warm enough for a hurricane", then waters that are warmer than a typical late season should also support a hurricane later than a typical season does.)

Putting all this together... Yes, I still expect the second half of the peak, and the late season, to be more active than usual and help the basin catch up.

Whether such changes start on September 5, September 10, September 20, October 1 or October 15, who knows. But historically, there's been no shortage of strong hurricanes (even strong CV hurricanes) during late seasons, even (and perhaps especially) in recent years. Maria formed on 9/16, Sam 9/22, Lorenzo 9/23, and Matthew 9/28 (though not so much in the MDR). Late-season Caribbean activity is always another beast, especially with a more established -ENSO/La Nina than now. And just last year, even with the western basin shut down by Nino shear, Hurricane Tammy formed on October 18 in the MDR.

It remains a question whether we can hit enough ACE to be above-average (only need 71 more), hyperactive (104.5 more), 200 ACE (144.9 more) or CSU's forecast numbers (174.9 more). The later in the season, the more likely storms will either recurve early or form further west, both resulting in less time over water and thus less ACE per storm. There's also a question of whether the season can produce enough hurricanes (9 more) and majors (5 more) to hit CSU's forecasts; I do think the 23 NS forecast is probably toast.

But the bottom line is... There remain plenty of ways for the season to be active and/or memorable. I would absolutely not be surprised if late September behaves like a typical early September, which would actually be in line with both the anomalous SSTs and the anomalous ITCZ positions.
Last edited by Teban54 on Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RE: Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2270 Postby mitchell » Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:57 pm

jlauderdal wrote:We get a 4-5 land falling in a populated area, the numbers miss will become a faded memory. They will miss on the number but we still have a long way to go to avoid major issues that really matter. Beryl was a mean storm, thats one for this season, more coming.


Agree - impactful storms definitely (and rightfully) quash conversations about seasonal forecasts. But I disagree that they make previous posts about seasonal forecasts "look silly".

Certainly accuracy in storm forecasting is more important and actionable than seasonal outlooks, to me anyway.
Last edited by mitchell on Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2271 Postby TomballEd » Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:02 pm

Climo starts trending down the Cape Verde storms around the Equinox. I don't know if that will be delayed, or October will be in the usual Caribbean and E. Gulf hotspots.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2272 Postby WaveBreaking » Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:29 pm

TomballEd wrote:Climo starts trending down the Cape Verde storms around the Equinox. I don't know if that will be delayed, or October will be in the usual Caribbean and E. Gulf hotspots.


IMO the northward-displaced ITCZ will probably delay the end of the CV season. For how long I’m not sure.
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Re: RE: Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2273 Postby tolakram » Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:03 pm

mitchell wrote:
jlauderdal wrote:We get a 4-5 land falling in a populated area, the numbers miss will become a faded memory. They will miss on the number but we still have a long way to go to avoid major issues that really matter. Beryl was a mean storm, thats one for this season, more coming.


Agree - impactful storms definitely (and rightfully) quash conversations about seasonal forecasts. But I disagree that they make previous posts about seasonal forecasts "look silly".

Certainly accuracy in storm forecasting is more important and actionable than seasonal outlooks, to me anyway.


I think you read too much into that comment. I think my comment will look silly if the season picks up because of the way I think about the season. :lol: Or something like that.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2274 Postby SFLcane » Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:39 pm

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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2275 Postby Teban54 » Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:48 pm


Given how Ryan Maue's tweets have gone in the past year (albeit usually on issues unrelated to real-time seasonal activity), these words do sound pretty ominous coming from him. But of course, nobody really knows what's going on right now, let alone in future.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2276 Postby psyclone » Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:30 pm

We're shredding prime season days (the calendar is now full of notorious storm anniversary dates) but the benefits of the dead streak are distributed unequally. For my corner of the world, our most dangerous time is latter Sept through October...so it's not reducing our climo risk...yet. a place like Corpus is really benefiting as their climo is front season loaded.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2277 Postby Hammy » Thu Aug 29, 2024 5:24 am

psyclone wrote:We're shredding prime season days (the calendar is now full of notorious storm anniversary dates) but the benefits of the dead streak are distributed unequally. For my corner of the world, our most dangerous time is latter Sept through October...so it's not reducing our climo risk...yet. a place like Corpus is really benefiting as their climo is front season loaded.


If the latest model runs are any indicator, it looks like we might've simply swapped the early August lull/late August uptick for each other and then things proceed as normal once the month rolls over
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2278 Postby toad strangler » Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:06 am

Hammy wrote:
psyclone wrote:We're shredding prime season days (the calendar is now full of notorious storm anniversary dates) but the benefits of the dead streak are distributed unequally. For my corner of the world, our most dangerous time is latter Sept through October...so it's not reducing our climo risk...yet. a place like Corpus is really benefiting as their climo is front season loaded.


If the latest model runs are any indicator, it looks like we might've simply swapped the early August lull/late August uptick for each other and then things proceed as normal once the month rolls over


wxman57 earlier mentioning Dr. Klotzbach sticking to his guns was interesting. The favorable indicators spelled out in the latest CSU full seasonal forecast (and many others) will likely be too much to deny in the end. With that said, I'm with many other here thinking that the high end storm counts and ACE projections are likely to be an overshoot. But we shall see!
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2279 Postby caneman » Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:11 am

toad strangler wrote:
Hammy wrote:
psyclone wrote:We're shredding prime season days (the calendar is now full of notorious storm anniversary dates) but the benefits of the dead streak are distributed unequally. For my corner of the world, our most dangerous time is latter Sept through October...so it's not reducing our climo risk...yet. a place like Corpus is really benefiting as their climo is front season loaded.


If the latest model runs are any indicator, it looks like we might've simply swapped the early August lull/late August uptick for each other and then things proceed as normal once the month rolls over


wxman57 earlier mentioning Dr. Klotzbach sticking to his guns was interesting. The favorable indicators spelled out in the latest CSU full seasonal forecast (and many others) will likely be too much to deny in the end. With that I'm with many other here thinking that the high end storm counts and ACE projections are likely to be an overshoot. But we shall see!


Very well may be but even if we come up say 4 or 5 storms shy with an above average storm count and say 3 serious impacts that forecast will be long forgotten and irrelevant.
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Re: 2024 Indicators: SST's, MSLP, Shear, SAL, Steering, Instability (Day 16+ Climate Models)

#2280 Postby WaveBreaking » Thu Aug 29, 2024 7:44 am

Don’t know where else to post this, but that blob of convection SW of the wave just off the coast of Africa might be trying to form its own area of low pressure. Note how the practically-closed circulation of the wave (which is very impressive by itself) near Guinea-Bissau starts to jog more to the SW at the end of the loop. This might affect model runs in the future if that blob persists.


Image
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