ATL: HELENE - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3741 Postby Pasmorade » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:07 am

sponger wrote:
TTARider wrote:
tolakram wrote:I too have criticism of the NHC forecast track vs what I see, but the difference between questioning an organization and being insulting is thinking I know their intent or why they did something. That's dumb and frankly makes the poster look dumb. It's a fair question, it's even a fair criticism, but try harder not to use the typical word salad of insults as if one knows better.

Saved radar loop, well east of the track. My criticism is this. NHC continues to use 12 hour forecast points and curve fits in between. While each point might be accurate the curve is not, so people turning on the line will see an obvious track discrepancy, even though they've been encouraged not to look at the line for years. 12 hour forecast points is straight out of the 90's and I think it's time to improve the messaging.

Besides all of that, the current storm location IS well east of track.


It was a head-scratcher there with regards to the 'center' of the cone in the last 24 hours or so... Not really sure what they were seeing that was lending them to push it so far west, but I guess they get paid to do more than just read the models :)

For what it's worth, the climate is changing, forecasting may be chasing a moving target more than ever these days.

I too am amazed that we were looking at models of this system long before there was any storm or system to speak of.. Modeling really is getting crazy with predicting areas of formation and origination,


The climate is changing, just not the way you think. It's called a Grand Solar Minimum and it will last decades. Also you cannot blame the models, the Icon nailed this track yesterday. The was the NHC's error, not a failure of modeling.

Eh, this study from NASA states that, at most, the GSM will cause, on average, global temperatures to decline 0.3C. IMO, human-caused warming, will at most, enhance tropical cyclogenesis as long as conditions are already favorable. Otherwise, I agree that the models accurately predicted Helene's track.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3742 Postby LARanger » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:10 am

syfr wrote:
chris_fit wrote:From the first to the last track before landfall - absolutely incredible work by the NHC. I don't understand any criticism. Always room for improvement, sure. But wow, mind boggling that we have the knowledge and technology to create such an accurate forecast from when Helene wasn't even Helene yet.



Yeah, I agree with you and don't fully understand the criticism. From the first track to the last, there's not a heck of a lot of difference, especially since Helene wasn't doing much moving 3-4 days ago, and it makes sense that such storms are tougher to model.

Over the days preceding landfall, the exact location moved back and forth a bit but not much.

I always assumed the simplistic Windows 3.1 presentation of the NHC cone and track were that way so that the page loads rapidly (which it always does). Yes, you could add a couple points between the 12 plots, but unless the storm is making huge directional changes, or moving REALLY fast so that the distance delta between 2 points is huge, in a 12 hr period, that's not going to add a lot of "fidelity" to the presentation


NHC did well with the storm over water, but, as with Francine, there were questions about the predictions over land . . . this time the discontinuity was much larger, the storm much more newsworthy, and the questions about what's going on more deserved. NHC is usually better than this. They should absolutely be given all benefits of the doubt, but the simple fact is that something's unusually "off" on a consistent level this year once a storm hits land.

In this case, the storm center is literally 150 miles from where it was supposed to be, having clearly been and remaining on a path that is consistently not the just-predicted path, yet each new prediction has it cutting a less and less plausibly sharp turn toward the previous predicted destination (similar to Francine) even as the error mileage increases. In such a circumstance, the issue is not "Windows 3.1 presentation". Something is just wrong.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3743 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:10 am

sponger wrote:
TTARider wrote:
tolakram wrote:I too have criticism of the NHC forecast track vs what I see, but the difference between questioning an organization and being insulting is thinking I know their intent or why they did something. That's dumb and frankly makes the poster look dumb. It's a fair question, it's even a fair criticism, but try harder not to use the typical word salad of insults as if one knows better.

Saved radar loop, well east of the track. My criticism is this. NHC continues to use 12 hour forecast points and curve fits in between. While each point might be accurate the curve is not, so people turning on the line will see an obvious track discrepancy, even though they've been encouraged not to look at the line for years. 12 hour forecast points is straight out of the 90's and I think it's time to improve the messaging.

Besides all of that, the current storm location IS well east of track.


It was a head-scratcher there with regards to the 'center' of the cone in the last 24 hours or so... Not really sure what they were seeing that was lending them to push it so far west, but I guess they get paid to do more than just read the models :)

For what it's worth, the climate is changing, forecasting may be chasing a moving target more than ever these days.

I too am amazed that we were looking at models of this system long before there was any storm or system to speak of.. Modeling really is getting crazy with predicting areas of formation and origination,


The climate is changing, just not the way you think. It's called a Grand Solar Minimum and it will last decades. Also you cannot blame the models, the Icon nailed this track yesterday. The was the NHC's error, not a failure of modeling.


I've seen the theories that this started in 2020, but I personally think we don't have the data to back it up yet. I feel like this is calling for La Nina before the temps cool enough. Need more years for looking back to determine when it starts. I'm also not convinced this will change anything, but frankly my amateur opinion is meaningless on this topic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7575229/

Off topic, maybe we should start a thread for this, but since 2020 these are the numbers.

Image

source: https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/solar-cycle-progression
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3744 Postby LARanger » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:14 am

longhorn2004 wrote:So why has Helene not shot off to the Northeast like other storms? Why is it meandering over Tennessee?


What is meandering over Tennessee? The storm center appears to be in North Carolina and on course toward Virginia . . . even the almost 90 degree turn the NHC is predicting, were it to happen now, would cause it to only nick the far northeast of Tennessee.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3745 Postby ScottNAtlanta » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:18 am

Just checkin in from Atlanta...I have power and no damage, but lots of people got flooded out of their homes last night. Peachtree creek hit an all time record (records go back more than 200 years). The rain has ended and a little windy.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3746 Postby Anti-freeze » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:20 am

"Have we reached an Albuquerque yet? No? THEN I'M NOT TURNING LEFT YET!!!" - Helene
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3747 Postby MGC » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:25 am

I watched Reed Timmer's feed last night on YouTube. IMO the eastern eyewall didn't impress me. There were several young men frolicking about like they were drunk on spring break enjoying the wind. None of them looked to have any trouble staying on their feet. Didn't see many trees blown over while Reed was driving around. Perhaps the two previous hurricanes took them all out. I've had the misfortune of being in Betsy in 1965, The building I was staying in, on Royal Street in the French Quarter was shaking and pieces of the the plaster were falling off the walls and ceiling when the eyewall came through. I'm going to drive through the area in a few weeks to see the damage......MGC
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3748 Postby ScottNAtlanta » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:26 am

Anti-freeze wrote:"Have we reached an Albuquerque yet? No? THEN I'M NOT TURNING LEFT YET!!!" - Helene

She missed that left turn at Atlanta
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3749 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:34 am

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3750 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:38 am

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3751 Postby Pas_Bon » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:39 am

sponger wrote:
TTARider wrote:
tolakram wrote:I too have criticism of the NHC forecast track vs what I see, but the difference between questioning an organization and being insulting is thinking I know their intent or why they did something. That's dumb and frankly makes the poster look dumb. It's a fair question, it's even a fair criticism, but try harder not to use the typical word salad of insults as if one knows better.

Saved radar loop, well east of the track. My criticism is this. NHC continues to use 12 hour forecast points and curve fits in between. While each point might be accurate the curve is not, so people turning on the line will see an obvious track discrepancy, even though they've been encouraged not to look at the line for years. 12 hour forecast points is straight out of the 90's and I think it's time to improve the messaging.

Besides all of that, the current storm location IS well east of track.


It was a head-scratcher there with regards to the 'center' of the cone in the last 24 hours or so... Not really sure what they were seeing that was lending them to push it so far west, but I guess they get paid to do more than just read the models :)

For what it's worth, the climate is changing, forecasting may be chasing a moving target more than ever these days.

I too am amazed that we were looking at models of this system long before there was any storm or system to speak of.. Modeling really is getting crazy with predicting areas of formation and origination,


The climate is changing, just not the way you think. It's called a Grand Solar Minimum and it will last decades. Also you cannot blame the models, the Icon nailed this track yesterday. The was the NHC's error, not a failure of modeling.



Agreed. By the way, ICON was the only one to nail Beryl early on (when all others showed the Corpus area). ICON seems to be winning this Hurricane Season's Model Survivor Series.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3752 Postby Pipelines182 » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:40 am

MGC wrote:I watched Reed Timmer's feed last night on YouTube. IMO the eastern eyewall didn't impress me. There were several young men frolicking about like they were drunk on spring break enjoying the wind. None of them looked to have any trouble staying on their feet. Didn't see many trees blown over while Reed was driving around. Perhaps the two previous hurricanes took them all out. I've had the misfortune of being in Betsy in 1965, The building I was staying in, on Royal Street in the French Quarter was shaking and pieces of the the plaster were falling off the walls and ceiling when the eyewall came through. I'm going to drive through the area in a few weeks to see the damage......MGC


Yeah, I can't say I've seen any footage that shows MH winds. I think part of that is because Helene hit a very empty part of the coastline, the strongest winds occur right at the coast and there just wasn't anyone there to record it. Even just a few miles in the wind speeds drop dramatically. Even then, you almost never see a hurricane's "official" wind speed anywhere on the ground, those are strictly over ocean speeds.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3753 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:46 am

Pipelines182 wrote:
MGC wrote:I watched Reed Timmer's feed last night on YouTube. IMO the eastern eyewall didn't impress me. There were several young men frolicking about like they were drunk on spring break enjoying the wind. None of them looked to have any trouble staying on their feet. Didn't see many trees blown over while Reed was driving around. Perhaps the two previous hurricanes took them all out. I've had the misfortune of being in Betsy in 1965, The building I was staying in, on Royal Street in the French Quarter was shaking and pieces of the the plaster were falling off the walls and ceiling when the eyewall came through. I'm going to drive through the area in a few weeks to see the damage......MGC


Yeah, I can't say I've seen any footage that shows MH winds. I think part of that is because Helene hit a very empty part of the coastline, the strongest winds occur right at the coast and there just wasn't anyone there to record it. Even just a few miles in the wind speeds drop dramatically. Even then, you almost never see a hurricane's "official" wind speed anywhere on the ground, those are strictly over ocean speeds.


Leave out the buildings and back off the coast and these storms are less worse, though it does seem to depend on exactly how the storm is behaving at landfall (strengthening, weakening). If nothing else this is a good visual argument for not building near the coast, the winds usually (not always) drop off dramatically. Water is more dangerous than the winds, again usually. Homestead in Florida is a good example of wind damage but is also a good example of bad or unenforced building codes. Remember that one house in Mexico Beach that was still standing after Michael? Had every house been built to those standards I think we would have had similar observations.

I'm waiting to see damage near the shore.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3754 Postby tomatkins » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:46 am

LARanger wrote:
longhorn2004 wrote:So why has Helene not shot off to the Northeast like other storms? Why is it meandering over Tennessee?


What is meandering over Tennessee? The storm center appears to be in North Carolina and on course toward Virginia . . . even the almost 90 degree turn the NHC is predicting, were it to happen now, would cause it to only nick the far northeast of Tennessee.


Thats a little harsh. The general gist of the comment is - whats going on that this is predicted to stall over the eastern US rather than lift into Canada or out to sea like most of these storms do.

The NHC prediction is based on the models - both the GFS and Euro support the center of the storm making a hard left - rotating around, then merging with the upper level cut off low that is currently centered over Memphis before that whole system slowly winds down and drifts east over the next week until a front comes and finally pushes whats left of it out to sea in the middle of next week.
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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3755 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:58 am

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3756 Postby mpic » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:58 am

ScottNAtlanta wrote:Just checkin in from Atlanta...I have power and no damage, but lots of people got flooded out of their homes last night. Peachtree creek hit an all time record (records go back more than 200 years). The rain has ended and a little windy.

Thank you for checking in and glad you came out ok!
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Alicia, Rita, Ike, Harvey and Beryl...moved to Splendora lol

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3757 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:59 am

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3758 Postby mpic » Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:00 am

MGC wrote:I watched Reed Timmer's feed last night on YouTube. IMO the eastern eyewall didn't impress me. There were several young men frolicking about like they were drunk on spring break enjoying the wind. None of them looked to have any trouble staying on their feet. Didn't see many trees blown over while Reed was driving around. Perhaps the two previous hurricanes took them all out. I've had the misfortune of being in Betsy in 1965, The building I was staying in, on Royal Street in the French Quarter was shaking and pieces of the the plaster were falling off the walls and ceiling when the eyewall came through. I'm going to drive through the area in a few weeks to see the damage......MGC

Those kids reminded me of why I quit watching TWC lol
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Alicia, Rita, Ike, Harvey and Beryl...moved to Splendora lol

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3759 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:01 am

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Re: ATL: HELENE - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#3760 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 27, 2024 10:04 am

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