Texas Fall 2024

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Ntxw
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1101 Postby Ntxw » Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:34 pm

TeamPlayersBlue wrote:Ntx, I dont have the sites look it up, or they are lost in my bookmarks somewhere, but other than 1989, 2022, 2009, what are the best analogs we can look at for a big Dec cold. I think eventually we get around to a large arctic outbreak next month.

What should we be looking for?


I typically use NCEI data for national monthly rankings. Of course regionally things might be different (cold in Dallas may not be cold in Seattle or New York) but generally you'll see local data correlate with national on a monthly basis. I may just reference DFW but will compare it to US as a whole.

NCEI Climate Data

I prefer PSL reanalysis since it makes monthly easy. Of course only goes back to 1948 so pick the years accordingly.

PSL reanalysis

Did a composite of the coldest Decembers and it's a ridge in Alaska, Aleutian->Hawaii low and eastern trough. There is some -NAO/AO but that's a weaker signal and a few years skew the means. The really big arctic outbreak years contain severe -EPO while calmer years like 1972-1978-2009 don't feature big outbreaks just consistently cold.

Image

Image

In short, good chance December will feature near to below normal. We do not have an El Nino so I would likely discount 1963-1972-2009 type of consistent cold. That leaves mostly the big Arctic outbreak neutral to cold ENSO type years.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1102 Postby Ntxw » Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:45 pm

Now another comparison is PNA. We all remember 1989 as cold but in reality it was really cold east of the MS. The central US was the western flank, but because the source region was so cold even the edges were really cold. That was a very +PNA type outbreak. This is why that year was popping up on ENS, so should we be surprised about the PNA? Do we have that kind of cold sitting in Canada? At the moment, no.

Image

1983 on the other hand was not as +PNA and the core of the cold was centered more in the interior of the US. This December had a mean TPV sitting over Hudson Bay just pumping cold.

Image
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1103 Postby Stratton23 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 1:51 pm

Looks like the pattern cold reload mid december with persistent ridging near alaska, whatever warmup we do see likely wont be of long duration
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1104 Postby Brent » Tue Nov 26, 2024 2:48 pm

Ntxw wrote:Now another comparison is PNA. We all remember 1989 as cold but in reality it was really cold east of the MS. The central US was the western flank, but because the source region was so cold even the edges were really cold. That was a very +PNA type outbreak. This is why that year was popping up on ENS, so should we be surprised about the PNA? Do we have that kind of cold sitting in Canada? At the moment, no.

https://i.imgur.com/9zcWR4o.png

1983 on the other hand was not as +PNA and the core of the cold was centered more in the interior of the US. This December had a mean TPV sitting over Hudson Bay just pumping cold.

https://i.imgur.com/eSLb7ad.png


If it follows 1989 yeah there were a series of fronts before the big one. We had a couple below freezing days with warmups between before the bottom dropped out

My only problem is 1989 hardly had any snow and it looks like after December there wasn't any sustained cold

I'm pulling more for the 09-10 analog
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1105 Postby Ntxw » Tue Nov 26, 2024 4:12 pm

Brent wrote:
Ntxw wrote:Now another comparison is PNA. We all remember 1989 as cold but in reality it was really cold east of the MS. The central US was the western flank, but because the source region was so cold even the edges were really cold. That was a very +PNA type outbreak. This is why that year was popping up on ENS, so should we be surprised about the PNA? Do we have that kind of cold sitting in Canada? At the moment, no.

https://i.imgur.com/9zcWR4o.png

1983 on the other hand was not as +PNA and the core of the cold was centered more in the interior of the US. This December had a mean TPV sitting over Hudson Bay just pumping cold.

https://i.imgur.com/eSLb7ad.png


If it follows 1989 yeah there were a series of fronts before the big one. We had a couple below freezing days with warmups between before the bottom dropped out

My only problem is 1989 hardly had any snow and it looks like after December there wasn't any sustained cold

I'm pulling more for the 09-10 analog


09-10 would require a very low -AO alongside strong STJ. That's a tall order given the background state. I think the best pull would be 2013-2014 type winter. That's a more modern year closer to our climo now.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1106 Postby Stratton23 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:31 pm

ensembles keep the AO/WPO/ EPO all negative through the next several weeks, hopefully we will see a reload in the pattern sometime in mid december
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1107 Postby Cpv17 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 6:59 pm

Stratton23 wrote:ensembles keep the AO/WPO/ EPO all negative through the next several weeks, hopefully we will see a reload in the pattern sometime in mid december


Need the NAO to cooperate.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1108 Postby Quixotic » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:12 pm

Pulling for 13-14. La Niña unless I miss my guess. Can’t believe nobody is pulling up 83-84.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1109 Postby Quixotic » Tue Nov 26, 2024 7:28 pm

Quixotic wrote:Pulling for 13-14. La Niña unless I miss my guess. Can’t believe nobody is pulling up 83-84.


Oh wait. It was a la nada as this season is projected to be. Only problem is 13 was cold in October.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1110 Postby Brent » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:31 pm

Quixotic wrote:
Quixotic wrote:Pulling for 13-14. La Niña unless I miss my guess. Can’t believe nobody is pulling up 83-84.


Oh wait. It was a la nada as this season is projected to be. Only problem is 13 was cold in October.


Yeah 13 is quickly falling behind because cobblestone ice was early December

I just hope we get one good storm here that isn't eaten up by A) it being 5 degrees or B) it being two degrees too warm...
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1111 Postby Golfisnteasy7575 » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:46 pm

Ntxw wrote:
Brent wrote:
Ntxw wrote:Now another comparison is PNA. We all remember 1989 as cold but in reality it was really cold east of the MS. The central US was the western flank, but because the source region was so cold even the edges were really cold. That was a very +PNA type outbreak. This is why that year was popping up on ENS, so should we be surprised about the PNA? Do we have that kind of cold sitting in Canada? At the moment, no.

https://i.imgur.com/9zcWR4o.png

1983 on the other hand was not as +PNA and the core of the cold was centered more in the interior of the US. This December had a mean TPV sitting over Hudson Bay just pumping cold.

https://i.imgur.com/eSLb7ad.png


If it follows 1989 yeah there were a series of fronts before the big one. We had a couple below freezing days with warmups between before the bottom dropped out

My only problem is 1989 hardly had any snow and it looks like after December there wasn't any sustained cold

I'm pulling more for the 09-10 analog


09-10 would require a very low -AO alongside strong STJ. That's a tall order given the background state. I think the best pull would be 2013-2014 type winter. That's a more modern year closer to our climo now.

The12z gefs has the trough retrograding west in the extended. We see if that actually transpires. A se ridge would be good not too strong and then we could get overrunning events.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1112 Postby Ntxw » Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:53 pm

Given the 500mb trends I still think a *warmed* up version of 1989 may be how it plays out. Early December matches, the bigger cold is towards mid month.

first 5 days PNA ridge.

Image

next 5. Kind of boring as cold slides off the east coast.

Image

middle 5 days gets interesting with the Alaskan ridge popping.

Image

So the coming days we will watch to see if that +PNA transpires into a big -EPO poleward ridge.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1113 Postby HockeyTx82 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:20 am

I find the lack of posting disturbing.

What's the latest take. All pushed back two more weeks?
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1114 Postby Cpv17 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:41 am

HockeyTx82 wrote:I find the lack of posting disturbing.

What's the latest take. All pushed back two more weeks?


Just got through looking at the 0z EPS and it looks pretty bad all the way through December 12th. Big time +PNA.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1115 Postby CaptinCrunch » Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:37 am

National Weather Service Fort Worth TX
535 AM CST Wed Nov 27 2024


.KEY MESSAGES...

- A strong cold front this evening will bring much cooler weather
to the region for Thanksgiving Day.

- Most of North Texas and parts of Central Texas will see the
first freeze of the season Thursday night into Friday morning.

- Additional overnight freezes possible this weekend as another
cold front arrives Saturday night. Below normal temperatures
will linger into the first week of December

Update:
The forecast trends discussed below generally remain on track. It
is worth noting that slight run-to-run adjustments (by a degree or
two) in deterministic guidance has caused some locations to
oscillate between a forecast for above/below freezing temperatures
Thursday night into Friday morning. The root cause is likely the
extent to which radiational cooling conditions can develop. With
North and Central Texas on the southern periphery of the surface
high pressure, the weakening pressure gradient across our area
should allow enhanced radiational cooling conditions to develop
particularly across parts of North Texas. With this forecast
update, Thursday night`s temperatures have been lowered slightly
below the NBM to better account for the calm winds and clearing
skies expected. NBM temperature probabilities continue to show a
60-90% chance of widespread freezing temperatures across much of
North Texas and parts of Central Texas by daybreak Friday.

Our well-advertised second cold front of the week will be plunging
southward into Central Texas through the evening hours on
Wednesday, with strong cold advection occurring in its wake. By
daybreak on Thanksgiving, wind chill temperatures will be hovering
in the 30s and lower 40s across North Central Texas, with gusty
north winds and overcast skies lending a definite wintertime feel
to the holiday. Brisk north winds will continue to pump chilly
Canadian air southward across the region on Thursday, though by
afternoon we should experience a definitive clearing trend from
north to south. This trend should yield sunny conditions generally
north of I-20 by mid afternoon, with clearing commencing later in
the afternoon and evening farther south. Highs will struggle into
the lower and middle 50s in most areas, with readings closer to
60 across the southern tier of our counties.

The combination of clear skies and slackening winds will allow
temperatures to drop into the upper 20s across many areas west
through north of the Metroplex Friday morning. This will represent
the first definitive freeze for many areas of North Central
Texas. The only areas that will avoid the freezing mark will be
the urban core of the Metroplex and most of the areas along the
I-35 corridor south of DFW. Indeed, just about anywhere in the
forecast area may see freezing conditions Friday morning, at least
in low-lying or otherwise sheltered locations. Will likely be
issuing a Freeze Watch for much of the area tomorrow, followed by
a Warning on Thursday. Precautions for tender plants, animals and
other items will be required by Friday morning.

Friday will represent a near carbon copy of Thursday,
temperature-wise, with most locations remaining in the 50s under a
cool, light northeast flow regime. The absence of stronger winds,
and a full day of sunshine will make it seem a bit warmer,
however. After chilly starts both Saturday and Sunday morning, the
weekend afternoons will feature continued sunny weather and
cooler than normal conditions, followed by a modest retrenchment
of high temperatures as we enter the first two days of the coming
week. The introduction of low level moisture and weak isentropic
lift late on Monday through Tuesday will enable the development of
patchy light rain across the southeastern zones Monday night into
Tuesday. Kept low PoPs in place for this portion of the forecast
area, though QPFs should remain very light.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1116 Postby Brent » Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:44 am

At least it's still November

That's about the only thing I've got :roll:

I mean this has trended so badly I have 60s for highs next week now :spam:
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1117 Postby starsfan65 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 9:53 am

Brent wrote:At least it's still November

That's about the only thing I've got :roll:

I mean this has trended so badly I have 60s for highs next week now :spam:
Brent you can thank the Positive PNA for that.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1118 Postby Brent » Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:03 am

starsfan65 wrote:
Brent wrote:At least it's still November

That's about the only thing I've got :roll:

I mean this has trended so badly I have 60s for highs next week now :spam:
Brent you can thank the Positive PNA for that.


I mean what a joke of a start after two abysmal winters
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1119 Postby Cpv17 » Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:08 am

Brent wrote:At least it's still November

That's about the only thing I've got :roll:

I mean this has trended so badly I have 60s for highs next week now :spam:


Just come into winter with the zero expectations mindset. You’ll be much better off.
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Re: Texas Fall 2024

#1120 Postby Gotwood » Wed Nov 27, 2024 10:31 am

Cpv17 wrote:
Brent wrote:At least it's still November

That's about the only thing I've got :roll:

I mean this has trended so badly I have 60s for highs next week now :spam:


Just come into winter with the zero expectations mindset. You’ll be much better off.

This is the key. I’m taking the ill believe when I see approach. We will get a storm or arctic blast eventually down here.
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