Have we forgotten Frances' pattern of...

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
Ziplock48

Have we forgotten Frances' pattern of...

#1 Postby Ziplock48 » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:13 pm

Intensifying at night? IF she is trying to get going again, the shear lessens and the dry air is no longer an issue, then might we see some more convection this evening?

This kind of thinking suggests that storms have a certain kind of "personality". As silly as it is to anthropomophize natural phenomena, it seems that patterns that we can recognize and relate to, don't stop up from assignining personality traits, but encourage us to do so. In our selfcenteredness, we tend to compare everything to our puny selves, even making the comparison in traits, personality, even the 'naming' of a monster of a hurricane. You could say that is is "human nature" to do this. :) Really bad joke, I know. Sorry, I'm so tired I'm punchy.

The problem is that kind of thinking takes us away from the truth. And the truth is that hurricanes behave according to physics. And as we have seen so far this season, and every hurricane season, the physics of the amazing storms are imperfectly understood.

I think what I'm doing here is analylizing our own abilities to analyze.

As we have seen in recent days, emotions have run very strong regarding this process. Another aspect of our ability to interpret data and what seem to be "dry" :) facts is our psychological makeup.

Sometimes I am amazed when reading the NHC's forcasts, and especially the discussions, where one can get a real sense of the individual author's struggles to remain objective, and stick to the model guidence. Or at the very least, describing the reasoning process involved in drawing conclusions from sets of data, often conflicting sets of data. This reasoning process, is, alas, wonderfully human.

Just a few thoughts on my thought processes. So, my reasoning for strengthening tonight, is: she's done it often before, she'll do it again, maybe. Given that hurricanes often go through these diurnal cycles. Correct me here if I'm wrong, but isn't nightime strengthening a result of the storm's using the energy gained during daytime heating, with a little time lag...ie. heat in the afternoon, hurricane absorbs heat energy in the early evening hours, then blammo, 2:00AM, we see deepening of the storm.

Thanks,
Zip

Caveat:
It does seem that the overall expansion of the windfield, as pointed out many times today on the board may indeed make it more difficult for Frances to tighten up and spin faster. She could, in my opinion, pull it off. There is enough time, with this slow motion and very warm water ahead, to do exactly that. From and old salt, "NEVER underestimate the Gulfstream".
0 likes   

Anonymous

#2 Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:15 pm

Shes been slowly getting better organized (sat presentation at least and outflow) all day, but somehow the winds seem to be dropping. Pressure is still the same though.
0 likes   

User avatar
tronbunny
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 1558
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Central FL

#3 Postby tronbunny » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:18 pm

I love your observation.
Let us look at last night, though.
Frances has continued the downward trend.
I am actually looking forward to each and every report, as well as the sometimes passionate analysis.

I'm admittedly a bit less stressed today.
0 likes   

Anonymous

#4 Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:21 pm

I actually think the downward trend began last night, and it held its own today. I just think the NHC held the winds up too long.
0 likes   

User avatar
dhweather
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 6199
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:29 pm
Location: Heath, TX
Contact:

#5 Postby dhweather » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:22 pm

Twice today, I've thought Frances was getting better organized, and was proven wrong twice.
So I'll believe it when I see it.
0 likes   

jagesq
Tropical Storm
Tropical Storm
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:07 pm

#6 Postby jagesq » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:23 pm

Yep, clearly all those wobbles that were being (mis)interpreted were just signs of her weakeness. My question is just why she has lost sooo much steam in what appears to be a fairly favorable enviroment?
0 likes   

User avatar
Aslkahuna
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 4550
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

The Environment

#7 Postby Aslkahuna » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:41 pm

is no longer that favorable-first off we had dry air entraining into the storm at mid levels followed by the development of high level shear. Until the shear relaxes the storm can't do much even though the dry air entrainment seems to have stopped.

Steve
8-)
0 likes   

Tertius
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 127
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Delray Beach, FL

Re: The Environment

#8 Postby Tertius » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:45 pm

Aslkahuna wrote:is no longer that favorable-first off we had dry air entraining into the storm at mid levels followed by the development of high level shear. Until the shear relaxes the storm can't do much even though the dry air entrainment seems to have stopped.

Steve
8-)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't her stationary status also inhibiting development due to her churning up the waters underneath her?
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

#9 Postby Stephanie » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:12 pm

Well Ziplock, we do name these storms, so it only seems that they take on a personality to fit there female or male names.

Charley didn't ask for directions.

Frances can't make up her mind. :lol: :wink:
0 likes   

sea oat
Tropical Storm
Tropical Storm
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:24 am
Location: Fort Walton Beach, Florida

Re: Have we forgotten Frances' pattern of...

#10 Postby sea oat » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:23 pm

Ziplock48 wrote:This kind of thinking suggests that storms have a certain kind of "personality". As silly as it is to anthropomophize natural phenomena, it seems that patterns that we can recognize and relate to, don't stop up from assignining personality traits, but encourage us to do so.


i know this will sound odd but they are like our children. to a weather lover anyways. we watch them being born, we name them, we watch them grow up and follow them. then we feel a loss when they leave. we are awed by their beauty yet frightened of their power.
0 likes   

otowntiger
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1932
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:06 pm

Re: The Environment

#11 Postby otowntiger » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:28 pm

Tertius wrote:
Aslkahuna wrote:is no longer that favorable-first off we had dry air entraining into the storm at mid levels followed by the development of high level shear. Until the shear relaxes the storm can't do much even though the dry air entrainment seems to have stopped.

Steve
8-)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't her stationary status also inhibiting development due to her churning up the waters underneath her?


I asked this question earlier and was told that in this area, especially near the gulf stream the waters are warm pretty far down and the gulf stream would replenish the warm water if there were any cold water to be brought up. At any rate, a storm would have to be pretty strong, IMO, to have the upwelling affect. This storm is not that stong, its winds are not that concentrated anyway.
0 likes   

User avatar
Ixolib
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 2741
Age: 68
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Biloxi, MS

#12 Postby Ixolib » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:32 pm

Stephanie wrote:Well Ziplock, we do name these storms, so it only seems that they take on a personality to fit there female or male names.

Charley didn't ask for directions.

Frances can't make up her mind. :lol: :wink:


:lol: Love it!! :lol: :uarrow:
0 likes   

Brent
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 38264
Age: 37
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Contact:

#13 Postby Brent » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:34 pm

Actually...

The winds have remained pretty steady since this morning according to recon. The NHC was just much more reluctant to lower the winds(as they should be).
0 likes   
#neversummer

User avatar
Innotech
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana
Contact:

#14 Postby Innotech » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:38 pm

the actua reason htey are given a name is so they can more easily be identified if they become historic. for example, in 1900 all we know of is "the great Galveston hurricane" in 1969, we know Hurricane Camille. So when we tlak of Camille, people know the exact storm. People not so familiar with the 1900 storm will go "what?" What storm in 1900?
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 131 guests