so was Ivan really a Cat 3? at landfall

[Psychonaut777]

wow that video is just incredible! those buildings are totally wrecked and many are over 10 stories high! Jesus..

[tronbunny]

I have no doubt it was a category 3 storm. The 20 foot plus surge that took out the I-10 bridge had to be transported by serious energy.

What makes me suspect however is seeing people make very intelligent arguments with a good scientific basis that contain an obvious dose of denial. For instance, Pensacola has several military-type installations that have back-up power and hurricane-rated measuring devices that didn't record extremely high winds. I'm sorry, but until you show me a category 3 wind from one of those stations I have to concede the original poster's argument. For goodness' sakes a North Captiva private device measured a 178mph gust during Charley!

The NHC would like to rely on their instruments. Some are remote, some are in aircraft, even a few are on the ground, just because one of theirs on the ground didn't catch the sustained winds doesn't discount their other data...
They use satellites, radar, dropsondes, etc.
I think they have a few more advanced instruments than just a ground based "whirly-gig" anemometer.

[Pebbles]

Watch this video and tell me this storm was a Cat 2 at landfall.

I dare you.

http://www.wwltv.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/w ... props=noad

That video is everyone's proof of at least CAT 3 damage...have done damage assesment for Hurricane Floyd with the American Red Cross...so yes.. I HAVE been trained and have experience doing damage assesment! But you know what... don't take my word for it... This is from the NHC site itself...

Category Three Hurricane:
Winds 111-130 mph (96-113 kt or 178-209 km/hr). Storm surge generally 9-12 ft above normal. Some structural damage to small residences and utility buildings with a minor amount of curtainwall failures. Damage to shrubbery and trees with foliage blown off trees and large trees blown down. Mobile homes and poorly constructed signs are destroyed. Low-lying escape routes are cut by rising water 3-5 hours before arrival of the center of the hurricane. Flooding near the coast destroys smaller structures with larger structures damaged by battering from floating debris. Terrain continuously lower than 5 ft above mean sea level may be flooded inland 8 miles (13 km) or more. Evacuation of low-lying residences with several blocks of the shoreline may be required. Hurricanes Roxanne of 1995 and Fran of 1996 were Category Three hurricanes at landfall on the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico and in North Carolina, respectively.

[Matt]

BOO. ALL WAS IT GOOD FUN

[Ivanhater]

wow, i wasnt on this board during ivan, i was just looking back at the posts when ivan hit and its very chilling, the hell that we went through can not be expressed in words,i just remember sitting in the dark that night listening to the radio adn hearing the eye wall was coming and ill never forget that sound and walking out the back door when daylight broke and my jaw dropped at the site of devestation, i know people who went through a major hurricane know what im talkign about, just amazing, looking through these posts brought back a lot of memories and i just wished i would have been on this board during that time

[Ivanhater]

amazing video at the bottom of page 2

[SouthernWx]

I know all the reports of what NHC had with the winds but what was the highest winds recored? from what i read besides the tornadoes this storm did not do cat 3 damage.

I still cant find anywhere that winds outside of a tornado were over 100.

1) a sailboat near Perdido Pass reported a 145 mph peak gust (measured)

2) the Nexrad WSR-88 velocity data from KMOB indicated wind speeds of over 120 kts along the coast between Gulf Shores and Pensacola.

3) aircraft reconnisance was reporting flight level winds of 120 kts (135-140 mph) near time of landfall....indicating a likely surface intensity of 105-110 kts (120-125 mph)

4) measured storm surge of 10-15'...which was devastating in the east eyewall region. Cat-2 hurricanes don't create tidal surges that high along the Florida panhandle.

5) observed damage which IMO indicated a hurricane just as intense as hurricane Frederic in the same area....and Frederic is still listed as a 130 mph cat-3 at NHC (my personal landfall intensity analysis is 110 kt/ 127 mph on both Frederic and Ivan).

PW

[Derek Ortt]

I wouldnt only go on the storm surge, since Dennis, of which there is no doubt at all was a cat 3, produced its worst surge at St Marks, due to its small size. Had Dennis been as large as Ivan, its surge likely would have been higher.

From looking at the data, it appears as if Dennis was the stronger of the 2. SFMR indicated 106KT at landfall during Dennis, but less than 100KT during Ivan. I have also been told that Ivan was close to being classified as 100KT at landfall. The SFMR is likely the best reading that we have in this instance.

That said, both were major hurricanes and both are in the top 10 most destructive US hurricanes ever

[SouthernWx]

I read this "Ivan was nowhere near as bad as Frederic — not even close," Mobile Police Chief Sam Cochran said, referring to the 1979 storm that devastated the Alabama coast. "I think we were really spared and blessed."

So i wanted to know if land winds were recored over 100 mph.What they call it does it matter?

The reason Ivan wasn't as bad as Frederic in Mobile is simple:

Frederic made a direct hit on Mobile county and the city of Mobile....both areas were located inside the north eyewall region; compare that to Ivan, which made landfall east of Mobile...and placed Mobile in the western (weaker) portion of the hurricane.

Lesson learned? In most intense hurricanes....the difference in being in the north/ east eyewall and south/ west eyewall is tremendous. That's why Cutler Ridge was wiped from the Florida map in 1992....but Key Largo and Tavernier weren't.

PW

[Ivanhater]

I wouldnt only go on the storm surge, since Dennis, of which there is no doubt at all was a cat 3, produced its worst surge at St Marks, due to its small size. Had Dennis been as large as Ivan, its surge likely would have been higher.

From looking at the data, it appears as if Dennis was the stronger of the 2. SFMR indicated 106KT at landfall during Dennis, but less than 100KT during Ivan. I have also been told that Ivan was close to being classified as 100KT at landfall. The SFMR is likely the best reading that we have in this instance.

That said, both were major hurricanes and both are in the top 10 most destructive US hurricanes ever

geez, i dont know, just by going with damage reports, ivan was just complete devastation, and dennis damage near navarre was worse there obviously from dennis than from ivan cause dennis hit closer to them, but going by damage its hard to imagine dennis being worse than ivan...weird how data and damage dont always correspond

[brunota2003]

My HLP Isuzu Rodeo was left on the beach at Gulf Shores, Al and recorded sustained winds of 87 MPH and a gust to 114 MPH before Ivan's storm surge ripped it out, and moved it 500 feet down the beach, it was anchored to the ground using 4 tie downs capable of holding down 2000 pounds each and 42" anchors shoved down into the ground, the storm surge was 10 feet high in Gulf Shores on the beach, so there is no doubt in my mind that Ivan was a Cat 3 at landfall...

[wxmann_91]

I wouldnt only go on the storm surge, since Dennis, of which there is no doubt at all was a cat 3, produced its worst surge at St Marks, due to its small size. Had Dennis been as large as Ivan, its surge likely would have been higher.

From looking at the data, it appears as if Dennis was the stronger of the 2. SFMR indicated 106KT at landfall during Dennis, but less than 100KT during Ivan. I have also been told that Ivan was close to being classified as 100KT at landfall. The SFMR is likely the best reading that we have in this instance.

That said, both were major hurricanes and both are in the top 10 most destructive US hurricanes ever

geez, i dont know, just by going with damage reports, ivan was just complete devastation, and dennis damage near navarre was worse there obviously from dennis than from ivan cause dennis hit closer to them, but going by damage its hard to imagine dennis being worse than ivan...weird how data and damage dont always correspond

I think that's because much of Dennis' wrath was unleashed over a smaller area, and that small area was probably in a rural area with little or no homes, so the damage potential could have been just as much as Ivan, but unleashed in a rural area instead of a population center.

[ericinmia]

I wouldnt only go on the storm surge, since Dennis, of which there is no doubt at all was a cat 3, produced its worst surge at St Marks, due to its small size. Had Dennis been as large as Ivan, its surge likely would have been higher.

From looking at the data, it appears as if Dennis was the stronger of the 2. SFMR indicated 106KT at landfall during Dennis, but less than 100KT during Ivan. I have also been told that Ivan was close to being classified as 100KT at landfall. The SFMR is likely the best reading that we have in this instance.

That said, both were major hurricanes and both are in the top 10 most destructive US hurricanes ever

Didn't you also allude to durring the IVAN ordeal last year that the winds alloft in IVAN couldn't make it to the surface becuase of something? I forgot what... But that was the reason that the winds on the ground were much less than originally percieved to be.

To the people looking at the destruction....
You can't compare popcorn to apples! Houses for instance in dade county must withstand winds of cat4 which entails CBR walls, and certain roofing styles. You CANNONT compare this to match stick houses built in the panhandle and alabama. I feel no pitty for someone that builds like that on the ocean. You were asking for it.
-Eric

[Astro_man92]

I thought Ivan was a cat 4 at land fall that means that dennis was stronger than Ivan at land fall

[Ivanhater]

I wouldnt only go on the storm surge, since Dennis, of which there is no doubt at all was a cat 3, produced its worst surge at St Marks, due to its small size. Had Dennis been as large as Ivan, its surge likely would have been higher.

From looking at the data, it appears as if Dennis was the stronger of the 2. SFMR indicated 106KT at landfall during Dennis, but less than 100KT during Ivan. I have also been told that Ivan was close to being classified as 100KT at landfall. The SFMR is likely the best reading that we have in this instance.

That said, both were major hurricanes and both are in the top 10 most destructive US hurricanes ever

Didn't you also allude to durring the IVAN ordeal last year that the winds alloft in IVAN couldn't make it to the surface becuase of something? I forgot what... But that was the reason that the winds on the ground were much less than originally percieved to be.

To the people looking at the destruction....
You can't compare popcorn to apples! Houses for instance in dade county must withstand winds of cat4 which entails CBR walls, and certain roofing styles. You CANNONT compare this to match stick houses built in the panhandle and alabama. I feel no pitty for someone that builds like that on the ocean. You were asking for it.
-Eric

here you go again...first of all im glad to see you really care about those effected by ivan, ya we asked for it ummm are you talking about those million dollar home matchsticks? or the I10 bridge math stick, or the grand lagoon home matchsticks, and the home on pcola beach built to florida code that were still wiped off their foundation...please stop with you insensitive out of line attitude

[brunota2003]

Those people got hit by Ivan then Dennis, and you still want to talk rude about them? Sure their houses aren't built to as strict as a code as the Dade ones, but who cares, they were still wiped away, just like the Dade ones would have been if they were hit by two strong storms...

[Ivanhater]

thanks guys, anyway, im glad i dug up the posts from last year, very interesting stuff

[brunota2003]

thanks guys, anyway, im glad i dug up the posts from last year, very interesting stuff

Your welcome...

[SouthernWx]

To the people looking at the destruction....
You can't compare popcorn to apples! Houses for instance in dade county must withstand winds of cat4 which entails CBR walls, and certain roofing styles. You CANNONT compare this to match stick houses built in the panhandle and alabama. I feel no pitty for someone that builds like that on the ocean. You were asking for it.
-Eric

Friend.....take it from someone who began researching hurricanes, tornadoes, and wind damage before many on this forum were even born. If and when a hurricane of Ivan's landfall intensity slams into the city of Miami and northern Dade county, Florida.....there will be damage beyond imagination.

If you truly believe it will take a cat-4/5 hurricane to devastate Miami/ Fort Lauderdale....you are only fooling yourself. IMHO a hurricane the size and intensity of Ivan at landfall would cause a full scale disaster down there. The damage toll and IMO death toll would be even greater than what we witnessed in the Pensacola area last September.

The city of Miami, Miami Beach, northern Dade county, and Broward county were all very lucky in 1992....lucky again last year. Sooner or later, that good fortune will end...and when it does, those areas will be devastated....will resemble a war zone.

PW

[brunota2003]

Sorry, this post was "not relevant to what we were talking about" so i deleted it...