Impact to Pensacola? How Accurate are Reports?

[KeyLargoDave]

Mike and others, I really really hope no more fatalities will be recorded, but of course there could be a few.

I do know that to this day many people in Miami take it as fact that 5,000 people died in Andrew. There are the stories of the secret refrigerated trucks, the migrant farm workers who "vanished," the coverup by the city of Miami, and on and on. People are seemingly very willing to believe that newspapers, politicians, safety officials and all witnesses are willing and able to collude on a massive coverup that seems to benefit no one, except maybe life insurance companies.

I worked for Knight-Ridder at the time and I can tell you the Miami Herald searched exhaustively for bodies, witnesses, anything that would show even one death "unreported" from Andrew. There just wasn't any evidence. OTOH, there weren't so many large condos destroyed in Andrew as there seem to be in the Panhandle. Until they get to the bottom of all the rubble, we won't know for sure.

The Miami-Dade urban rescue unit also went to the Panhandle immediately after the storm. They frequently travel to disaster sites in other states and the Caribbean. Their dogs are specially selected and trained for the ability to find living and dead victims. I'm pretty sure they've had the dogs checking every destroyed building they could get to. I read in the Pensacola paper about one man pulled out of a demolished building 30 hours after the storm, but almost no other victims, living or dead, found this way.

I really feel for all the victims of this season. I don't want to minimize anyone's concerns or criticize the discussion. Just wanted to point out the rumors that arose after Andrew and persist to this day.

[StrongWind]

I'm just curious as to what realistic reason every 'official' along with everyone else involved could have to undergo such a cover up.

Not enough time to evacuate? They get to blame the NHC, not themselves. This was neither a nuclear accident nor a chemical-agent laden train wreck where significant blame could be assigned. It was an act of God.


Besides, political coverups involving more than a few people tend to be almost impossible. What rabid Democrat wouldn't jump at the chance to go screaming to the press that the Republicans were trying to coerce him. And vice versa. Multiple agencies. Multiple people. Multiple agendas. Why? Why? Why?

SW

[stu]

Well I was able to get onto Gulf Breeze on Sunday to carry out a damage assessment – generally most damage was caused by surge and not wind – only about 5% of houses were wind damaged and this includes fallen tree damage.

The house that were within 500 yard of the beach all suffered surge with many houses totally loosing the ground floor.

Regarding fatalities – I heard reports of 7 from Pensacola beach from a number of local emergency management and Army sources – I have no reason to dought this count but again no way to confirm it.

We were not allowed onto Pensacola beach (even with our press passes) as a search and recovery operation was still underway. However I category state that despite best efforts Pensacola beach was not totally evacuated – indeed I know of two survivors from that area.

[jpigott]

why cover-up? I can think of a few reasons. 1)Florida = tourism, hurricane with high death toll = less tourism 2)property values go down if fewer people move here 3)don't want to create panic (#3 is the most sensible reason, #1 & 2 well that's just the conspiracy theorist in me)

[wolffeeder]

Let's see, why would the government fudge the death toll a bit?
1)To help keep Florida's never ending building boom going. Keep all them construction workers busy and all that pricey taxable real estate right on the beach. It would be good for the all important economy and a little white lie never hurt anyone.
2) To keep Florida's tourist industry busy. Same reasoning as above. I remember seeing a bunch of ads on TV while Frances was rolling in saying how the SW coast of the state was fine now, hurricane gone, come on down. This was in Florida, with a hurricane starting to whip the trees around right outside. Too ironic.
3) To deflect criticism of the government a little bit. Justified or not, people will cry that the government wasn't prepared, or didn't do enough to protect them.
Besides, the courts have ruled recently that lying on the TV news isn't actually illegal. You can fire TV reporters who refuse to knowingly lie, and it's OK.

The insurance motive seems weak. If you have a dead person then the company will have to pay, although they may try and say that your loved one is merely missing for a while in some cases.

Now why would someone exaggerate the death toll? Unless they were planning on selling some sensationalistic book, or wanted to make a name for themselves on the Internet among the tinfoil hat brigade, I can't think of anything off hand. Those reasons might apply in some cases, but probably not in all listed in this thread.

Would it be hard to keep the media from knowing the death tolls were fudged a bit? Imagine you run a newspaper or TV news department. Which is easier. Do you report the government figures, the same as every other respectable source is reporting. Or do you spend a whole bunch of time and money running around a large devastated area, maybe many places off limits or hard to get to, interviewing all hospitals, law enforcement, rescue people in the area, compiling lists, trying to puzzle out who might have been counted twice or more as they moved through the system, then go and report a different number than all other respectable sources thereby earning yourself a membership in the tinfoil hat brigade, and aggravating the same government that regulates your corporate employers? I bet most would choose the first option.

Keep in mind that the people on the ground in the rescue and recovery never see the whole picture. So unless the distortion of the numbers was really severe, they wouldn't know for sure it was happening. Only the people who compile the counts and release them to the press would have to be in on it.

You might be able to get a more accurate death toll well after the fact by looking at records in the courthouses. That would depend on if death certificates were easily searchable by date, and you would miss seasonal residents, illegals, and tourists. And, if the government really wanted to do a cover up and thought someone might do this, records can be lost or misplaced.

But, I haven't heard of anyone actually ever doing that.

So, I figure I will never know what the situation really was in any of these big storms. Maybe there was a cover up. Maybe not. But it seems possible. If they are actualy doing it is hard to tell.

Personaly I got the impression that the news reports are a bit freer after Ivan than after Charlie or Andrew. But, some of the above postings make me wonder.

Thats my conspiacy rant for this storm.

[ColdWaterConch]

Let's see, why would the government fudge the death toll a bit?
1)To help keep Florida's never ending building boom going. Keep all them construction workers busy and all that pricey taxable real estate right on the beach. It would be good for the all important economy and a little white lie never hurt anyone.
2) To keep Florida's tourist industry busy. Same reasoning as above. I remember seeing a bunch of ads on TV while Frances was rolling in saying how the SW coast of the state was fine now, hurricane gone, come on down. This was in Florida, with a hurricane starting to whip the trees around right outside. Too ironic.
3) To deflect criticism of the government a little bit. Justified or not, people will cry that the government wasn't prepared, or didn't do enough to protect them.
Besides, the courts have ruled recently that lying on the TV news isn't actually illegal. You can fire TV reporters who refuse to knowingly lie, and it's OK.

The insurance motive seems weak. If you have a dead person then the company will have to pay, although they may try and say that your loved one is merely missing for a while in some cases.

Now why would someone exaggerate the death toll? Unless they were planning on selling some sensationalistic book, or wanted to make a name for themselves on the Internet among the tinfoil hat brigade, I can't think of anything off hand. Those reasons might apply in some cases, but probably not in all listed in this thread.

Would it be hard to keep the media from knowing the death tolls were fudged a bit? Imagine you run a newspaper or TV news department. Which is easier. Do you report the government figures, the same as every other respectable source is reporting. Or do you spend a whole bunch of time and money running around a large devastated area, maybe many places off limits or hard to get to, interviewing all hospitals, law enforcement, rescue people in the area, compiling lists, trying to puzzle out who might have been counted twice or more as they moved through the system, then go and report a different number than all other respectable sources thereby earning yourself a membership in the tinfoil hat brigade, and aggravating the same government that regulates your corporate employers? I bet most would choose the first option.

Keep in mind that the people on the ground in the rescue and recovery never see the whole picture. So unless the distortion of the numbers was really severe, they wouldn't know for sure it was happening. Only the people who compile the counts and release them to the press would have to be in on it.

You might be able to get a more accurate death toll well after the fact by looking at records in the courthouses. That would depend on if death certificates were easily searchable by date, and you would miss seasonal residents, illegals, and tourists. And, if the government really wanted to do a cover up and thought someone might do this, records can be lost or misplaced.

But, I haven't heard of anyone actually ever doing that.

So, I figure I will never know what the situation really was in any of these big storms. Maybe there was a cover up. Maybe not. But it seems possible. If they are actualy doing it is hard to tell.

Personaly I got the impression that the news reports are a bit freer after Ivan than after Charlie or Andrew. But, some of the above postings make me wonder.

Thats my conspiacy rant for this storm.

Respectfully, your rant is just silly, if not stupid. For starters, just how do you keep the people in the conspiracy quiet? And, newspapers do not just follow the gov't numbers...they are hoping that they find more bodies...if it bleeds, it leads.

[jpigott]

you know what the problem is - - not enough people demanding to know the facts, we are so used to being spoon fed everything in terms of news that i think it would be possible to cover up a massive loss of life. I have a friend who lived in Homestead during Andrew (fortunately his house was new CBS construction) and he saw those refridgerated semis, he heard about numerous bodies found in a certain body of water (although he admits having no first hand knowledge about these bodies i am more inclined to believe someone who actually lived there). And how 'bout Charley; everyone saw those refridgerated semis, pics were all over the news. There was also that telephone interview with a local hospital administrator on FOX (go ahead and say what you want about FOX, but they did not make that hospital administrator say what she said) who said there were 150-200 DOAs, where was the follow up on that story!!! And now we got all this with Ivan. Not saying these death tolls are definetley cover-ups, but they sure could be

[Lindaloo]

Well I was able to get onto Gulf Breeze on Sunday to carry out a damage assessment – generally most damage was caused by surge and not wind – only about 5% of houses were wind damaged and this includes fallen tree damage.

The house that were within 500 yard of the beach all suffered surge with many houses totally loosing the ground floor.

Regarding fatalities – I heard reports of 7 from Pensacola beach from a number of local emergency management and Army sources – I have no reason to dought this count but again no way to confirm it.

We were not allowed onto Pensacola beach (even with our press passes) as a search and recovery operation was still underway. However I category state that despite best efforts Pensacola beach was not totally evacuated – indeed I know of two survivors from that area.

Being an insurance adjuster for 12 years, I too believe most of the damage (pics I have seen) are from surge and not wind. Some of the condo damage suggests a wall of water.


Like this picture below. Wind did not do that. Click the link and view the first picture. Also, notice the Holiday Inn in the picture. It is leaning to the North.
http://www.al.com/galleries/ivan/

[ColdWaterConch]

you know what the problem is - - not enough people demanding to know the facts, we are so used to being spoon fed everything in terms of news that i think it would be possible to cover up a massive loss of life. I have a friend who lived in Homestead during Andrew (fortunately his house was new CBS construction) and he saw those refridgerated semis, he heard about numerous bodies found in a certain body of water (although he admits having no first hand knowledge about these bodies i am more inclined to believe someone who actually lived there). And how 'bout Charley; everyone saw those refridgerated semis, pics were all over the news. There was also that telephone interview with a local hospital administrator on FOX (go ahead and say what you want about FOX, but they did not make that hospital administrator say what she said) who said there were 150-200 DOAs, where was the follow up on that story!!! And now we got all this with Ivan. Not saying these death tolls are definetley cover-ups, but they sure could be

See, this is where the BS comes from...I, too, was in Andrew. I saw the trucks...they always bring the trucks just in case.

But, you see, what I did not see or hear about was all the dead people....because when that many people die, their friends, relatives, etc. know about it and you hear about it. Why can't you people just deal with reality...

[jpigott]

ColdWaterConch - you know, i'm sure you went to talk to the relatives and friends of all the migrant workers/illegals. Those are the folks i'm referring to, they didn't exactly live in ideal Andrew proof structures. Another thing, i was there through Frances, didn't see any refridgerated semis, you know why, becasue we didn't need them. You can say, well they were there "just in case" in Andrew/Charley/Ivan. I say why have speeding police escort an empty refridgerated semi. I am not part of the tin hat brigade, just got a few questions. . . Like why would a hospital administrator claim to have 150-200 DOAs and then not even have a follow up or have some news anchor come on and at least state that an error had been made

[ColdWaterConch]

If you truly believe that there has been massive loss of life from Andrew/Charley/Ivan, then prove it. It should not be that hard.

Call the hospital administrator who was on FOX (call FOX and get her name or a transcript from the newscast) and ask him or her to confirm the story. LMK what you find out.

As for Andrew, KeyLargoDave has already posted that he worked for Knight-Ridder (the newspaper) at the time of Andrew and they TRIED to find dead bodies but could not.

As for the speeding "refrigerated semi"...that is not what was reported. Read again.

[jpigott]

Look, i am not saying massive loss of life (no tin hat here) What i do think is that the numbers are fudged. Too many initial reports that should be followed up on that are not. (60 dead in mobile home park / 150-200 DOAs etc)Not my job to go ask the hospital administrator why she said what she said. I just can't believe the media would not discredit this report (and who knows maybe they have, but i do work for a living and am not able to monitor all wire reports). And if i was part of this conspiracy crowd don't you think i would be all over these reports of 26,000 dead in Hati/turtle island gone.

[ColdWaterConch]

Look, i am not saying massive loss of life (no tin hat here) What i do think is that the numbers are fudged. Too many initial reports that should be followed up on that are not. (60 dead in mobile home park / 150-200 DOAs etc)Not my job to go ask the hospital administrator why she said what she said. I just can't believe the media would not discredit this report (and who knows maybe they have, but i do work for a living and am not able to monitor all wire reports). And if i was part of this conspiracy crowd don't you think i would be all over these reports of 26,000 dead in Hati/turtle island gone.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/05/Flori ... l_ta.shtml

[Brent]

I want proof. Everyone who died had relatives, so show me the relatives. Something. I don't buy these conspiracy theories.

[Downdraft]

Conspiracy hogwash! There are no cover-ups in progress to minimize the death count from Ivan. Dead people have families and usually insurance. This same garbage started after Andrew too. If the government was covering up the number of dead then where are the family members screaming to the media? The count is what it is. You don't have to identify someone to list them in the count. You just don't release the identity till the next of kin are notified. I work in Public Safety and I'm sick of hearing the conspiracy theories. If a 1000 people got killed because they didn't evacuate when told to then it's in the government's interest to make that's known so the next set of fools thinks twice about it! I'm sure the count will continue to rise as bodies are pulled from storm surge rubble but we don't have an secret stash of corpses on ice.

[StrongWind]

Look, i am not saying massive loss of life (no tin hat here) What i do think is that the numbers are fudged. Too many initial reports that should be followed up on that are not. (60 dead in mobile home park / 150-200 DOAs etc)Not my job to go ask the hospital administrator why she said what she said. I just can't believe the media would not discredit this report (and who knows maybe they have, but i do work for a living and am not able to monitor all wire reports). And if i was part of this conspiracy crowd don't you think i would be all over these reports of 26,000 dead in Hati/turtle island gone.

Initial reports on 9/11 were 5, 6, even 10,000 killed. Have 8,000 deaths been covered up?

[seaswing]

My co-workers father lives in Pensecola right on the beach. She and her husband evacuated him a couple of days before Ivan struck the area. She is up there now and called us yesterday to tell us that the destruction was pretty horrible and that they were only allowed back into the area on Sunday because bodies were still washing up. I consider her a very reliable source. I do believe the barrier islands were struck very hard and my understanding is that it took some time before help could get to them. I also saw a convoy of Search and Resue teams going north on I-75 early last week. They did have a semi-truck with them that was refrigerated. I still see lots of bucket trucks heading up towards the north every morning as I drive south on I-75.

[alicia-w]

We went to a coworker's home in Cantonment. He had no power, no phone, no water and it looked like a war zone. Forty trees down on 2.5 acres. The house looks structurally sound but upon closer inspection, you can see where the windows have been moved out of the frames. And the dormers look to be somewhat cockeyed. The guy's pool liner was sucked out too. They have about 300 animals and only lost one chicken. Very lucky but still very overwhelmed.
We took him our generator, some gas and some food and water. There are so many very rural areas out there that I think it will be a long while before they know what the full extent of damage. We were very lucky but certainly not left unscathed.

[vbhoutex]

Seaswing I almost wish I hadn't seen your post about the bodies. It confirms another report I have seen, which I know is from a reliable source that said the exact same thing(they live in GB and lost everything). I have no idea if there are a few missing or still hundreds missing, but I fear the final toll will be much higher than it is now. Alicia brings up a very good point about the rural areas, West and North of P'cola and how isolated they are. It could take a while to determine the losses in those areas and they were in the eyewall for hours without letup.

Anyway we look at this it is a major tragedy, no matter how many are gone. I continue to pray for everyone touched by this terrible situation.

[x-y-no]

I really don't understand what motivation there would be to conceal deaths. It would have to be a strong reason, because the risk of discovery and subsequent scandal would be high.

I fear we will be learning of more deaths as time goes by, but not because there's any coverup now.