More stories about Hurricane Ivan

[Southern4sure]

this video was taken during Ivan. click on Hurricane Ivan (September 16, 2004) ABC 33/40 Coverage: Christopher Sign in Orange Beach:

http://beta.abc3340.com/weather/video.hrb

The crew stayed at our condo complex in Gulf Shores. We are on the beach side the last complex next to the State Park. The building structure is fine, but alot of the condos have heavy water damage, some have windows blown. Pictures do not begin to tell the real story. Gulf Shores is really torn to pieces. I agree in thinking Ivan was a Cat 4.

Southern4sure

[Derek Ortt]

At landfall, Opal had weakened to a marginal 3 (it wasnt a strong 3). Also, according to the NHC post season analysis, the cat 3 winds were within a very narrow band; thus, only a very small area saw cat 3 conditions (probably about a 1 mile winde area, east of Ft Walton Beach)

The wind field in Ivan was much larger and lasted for a longer duration. Some of the wind damage I have seen from Jeanne has exceeded that from Ivan, although I dont doubt that Ivan did cause extensive wind damage to Pensacola. Opal only brought minimal cat 1 winds to Pensacola and the beach areas were west of the landfall; thus, the worst of the surge did NOT affect Pensacola. This time, the worst of the conditions did affect Pensacola (see Destin during Opal... actually somewhat similar)

[Anonymous]

Sigh.
Proof of Ivan's Cat 4 strength.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/new ... oto1.shtml
Significant wind damage, almost complete destruction.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/new ... oto2.shtml
Same story as above.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/new ... oto3.shtml
Nothing left, evidence of 130+ mph winds.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/new ... oto9.shtml
Cat 5 surge. I have never seen a hurricane demolish a section of a interstate highway bridge. Absolutely astonishing.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/new ... oto9.shtml
Severe roof damage here.

Ivan was a Cat4 or a strong Cat 3. The damage shows. Also, Pensecola did recieve the strongest winds,as the eastern eyewall moved right over the city. Absolutely NO way Jeanne produces worse wind damage than Ivan.

[Derek Ortt]

pensacola did receive the worst of the winds in ivan, not in opal though

also, I have been warned by numerous people NOT to judge the intensity based upon damage. There are many factors that cause damage, such as building codes and duration of the winds.

I am expecting a reduction of the winds on a post season analysis (H-wind does not lie... it yielded 123KT for charley and 90 for frances, didnt have the final sfmr data for jeanne)

[Anonymous]

But Derek, you call Tropical Cyclone Tracy a Cat 5 because of the incredible damage it did. I have only heard reports of gusts at 150 mph or less (dont quote me on it, just from memory). I assume Darwin just had stellar building codes?

[Derek Ortt]

The recoreded gusts of 150 from Tracy were well before the worst of the storm. Thats when the gauges failed.

Through the gradient wind equation, the winds were much more intense in Tracy even that Iris due to the very small nature of Tracy (TS winds only extended 40KM, 25 miles from the center of the eye).

Ivan wasnt a case where you either got the eye wall or you had perfect gulf weather. with the approaching trough, the ambient pressures may have been lowered, lowering the pressure gradient. Didnt help one bit with the storm surge though due to the fact that it weakened so close to the coast, just like charley's intensification so close to land helped to reduce the storm surge

[Matthew5]

Charley was as bad as Andrew or nearly so...The winds had to be at least 125 to 130 knots=145 to 150 mph...Looking at damage you could not hardly tell the differents between the to hurricanes(Charley,Andrew) It was alot like Andrew it was a small hurricane with a eye of around 5 to 6 miles wide...Andrew had a larger eye then charley did. Charley like had a area of damage of 10 to 15 miles...While Andrew had a area of damage of 15 to 20 mph something like that...Charley was alot like a super sized F3 Tornadoe...Ivan, I need more data but as of this moment I can't judge it just yet. But looking at that data. I posted 95 knots=110 mph winds gust possible upwards to 120 mph...On the Eastern in Northeastern Quad...But as Southernwx said the storm tryed to wrap some convection around at the 700z just after the black out. So it could of made a fast upswing in the winds....As for Jeanne that is for later...But I will say Ivan was near 125 mph winds...But just to give Ivan its dues I will say that it could of been stronger...As for the surge Ivan was a cat5 in the Gulf of Mexico so no wonder...

[Anonymous]

The recoreded gusts of 150 from Tracy were well before the worst of the storm. Thats when the gauges failed.

Through the gradient wind equation, the winds were much more intense in Tracy even that Iris due to the very small nature of Tracy (TS winds only extended 40KM, 25 miles from the center of the eye).

I dont see how this is so. If you claim that TS winds extended only 25 miles from the center(Which means, the eye is 25 miles from you, the eyewall is 20 miles from you), then I would only start to experience TS winds when the eye started its approach to the coast. Ill assume hurricane winds extended 15 miles, so when I start to experience hurricane conditions (74 mph sustained, not NEARLY enough to produce a 150 mph gust), the eyewall would be 10 MILES from me. Once I got the the winds strong enough to produce the 150 mph gust, then the eyewall would be over me.

I know Tracy caused severe damage, but when those anemometers failed, the worst of the storm had to have been occuring (like you said, because of Tracy's small nature). Unless the storm was moving at like 1 mph, then the weather would deteriorate too quickly for the "Worst of the storm" to not be occuring.

Tracy's pressure of 950 mbs (a whopping 30 mbs over the max Cat 5 pressure of 920) does not in any way support a Cat 5. Ill give Tracy its 120 mph with 150 gusts.

[Derek Ortt]

Trsust me on this,

the graident wind equation EASILY supports a strong cat 5 for Tracy. It is the same as how Iris was able to support 130KT winds with the identical pressure. Its the derivative of pressure with respect to the derivative of distance that determines the wind. In now way does the pressure itself determine the wind speed

[karenfromheaven]

I see, for the same wind speed to occur, a larger storm would need a lower central pressure to achieve the same pressure gradient, or difference in pressure across area.

[Frank P]

There is no way Ivan was a Cat 2 or marginal Cat 3 at landfall... that's absurb... the damage tells the complete story... I witnessed Camille's damage first hand, and the damage inflicted by Ivan is the only storm of recent years can comes close to that of the damage cause by Camille's surge... This is also the opinion of many MS residents who went thru Camille and also saw the footage of Ivans damage... Camille just did a lot more wind damage than Ivan, to be expected with a top end Cat 5, but the surge in the western panhandle, and associated damage was incredible from Ivan.....

[Dean4Storms]

The strongest winds from Opal were not east of Ft. Walton or in Destin. I live down here and know too well. Hurlburt Field which is WELL WEST of Ft. Walton recieved 144mph Gusts and here in Destin evidence of some 100mph gusts and that was it. The storm surge in Destin was greater with Opal because Opal came ashore alot closer (just west of Navarre Bch., been there and they renamed that Bch. Opal Bch.

You are COMPLETELY wrong Derek, I've been over to Pensacola and Perdido Key (Brother in laws parents live there and have a business there and was asked to go help them.). The wind damage over there FAR exceeds anything with Opal, complete BLOCK bldgs blown down, brick bldgs blown down, 3ft. wide Billbord poles snapped off after the tops were already for the most part completely gone. Say what you want, but when the REAL experts who can access wind speeds from damage get a report out I think you will be in for a surprise. I've been in Tuscaloosa, AL (parents live there) right after the F-4 tornado went through two years ago in December missing my folks house by 1/2 mile and the wind damage is as worse with what I've seen over and around Pensacola.

[tronbunny]

It is my amateur opinion that the Saffir-Simpson needs either an overhaul or we need a new "yardstick" for hurricanes.
People no longer have much faith, now that so very many have more real-world experience.

[CFL]

Ivan's right front quadrant apparently brought a lot of tornadoes into the Pensacola/Cantonment area as well. My sister heard one not too far from the Escambia Bay, and my next door neighbor heard the one that went down our street. You can look at what remains of some of the trees and see how they are torqued and twisted.

[SunnyThoughts]

I agree with the strong cat 3, minimal cat 4 reports. We just got power back today in Pace, just to the east of Pensacola. This entire area looks like a war zone. I've heard reports that escambia and santa rosa counties have lost at least 40% of their timber, and to ride around and look, that certainly seems the case.

[~SirCane]

Derek, I challenge you to come to Pensacola and see the damage for yourself in regards to wind.

The damage at the Amsouth Bank in Gulf Breeze (entire front part of the three-story building destroyed) was not due to water.

All of the trees uprooted...all of the bare branches....wind.

Damage to the schools in the area......well constructed I might add.....were only due to wind (entire Middle School in Pensacola uninhabitable.........gym roof partially torn off in Gulf Breeze, stucco facing torn off.........several press boxes destroyed.

I've been through Erin (strong 1 actually...90 MPH).....Opal (strong 3)......Danny (moderate 1).....Georges (strong 2)....and I have NEVER seen anything like this.

I've also seen damage from Frederic (strong 3) and Eloise (3) and this is even worse.

Man Doc, you're not kidding about that AMSouth bank! That was a tall building and now it's like half the height that is was! Also West Florida Hospital had catastrophic wind damage. I could not believe what I saw. It's incredible to see all that damage.

As for Erin, I read the final report on Erin and they found that Erin was a CAT2 as she made landfall. I didn't realize that till I read it a couple weeks ago. I had always thought it was a strong CAT1.

[~SirCane]

The strongest winds from Opal were not east of Ft. Walton or in Destin. I live down here and know too well. Hurlburt Field which is WELL WEST of Ft. Walton recieved 144mph Gusts and here in Destin evidence of some 100mph gusts and that was it. The storm surge in Destin was greater with Opal because Opal came ashore alot closer (just west of Navarre Bch., been there and they renamed that Bch. Opal Bch.

You are COMPLETELY wrong Derek, I've been over to Pensacola and Perdido Key (Brother in laws parents live there and have a business there and was asked to go help them.). The wind damage over there FAR exceeds anything with Opal, complete BLOCK bldgs blown down, brick bldgs blown down, 3ft. wide Billbord poles snapped off after the tops were already for the most part completely gone. Say what you want, but when the REAL experts who can access wind speeds from damage get a report out I think you will be in for a surprise. I've been in Tuscaloosa, AL (parents live there) right after the F-4 tornado went through two years ago in December missing my folks house by 1/2 mile and the wind damage is as worse with what I've seen over and around Pensacola.

Right on the money Dean. I guess Ortt needs to come and see for himself! This was no CAT 2 or weak 3. CAT 5 storm surge and extensive wind damage. It's a no brainer.

[baygirl_1]

Is there some way to figure in the amount of wind they got "upstream?" I mean, Escambia, Monroe, and other Alabama counties inland from the ccast had extremely high winds as Ivan's eyewall moved north out of Baldwin County. Ivan remained a hurricane a lot longer than they expected. The people in those inland counties really took a hit and some are still waiting for power.
Also, I spent some time in Daphne, AL (in central-western Baldwin County and about 30 miles from Gulf Shores) over the weekend. The damage over there is much worse than what I've seen here in Mobile. In some neighborhoods, almost every other house has a tree on it! I know this isn't very scientific, but the damage over there seems at least as bad if not worse than what I saw after Frederic when I was a child. And I'm told by friends the damage is much worse in the south part of Baldwin County (Loxley, Robertsdale, Foley,etc.).
Just my two little cents...

[Agua]

That surge was awesome and clearly the result of its long period in the Gulf as a Cat 5 / strong Cat 4.

HOWEVER, the fact remains that there were no observed *sustained* winds much over 100 mph. Yes, there were strong recorded gusts, but, sustained winds?

Also, with regard to the damage which appears to be caused by wind, on the day following Ivan's landfall, a Mobile station did a chopper fly over and an emergency management fellow was providing a running narrative. He said that the newest building codes in that part of the Panhandle only required that buildings be capable of sustaining Cat 2 storms. Any buildings erected prior to the implementation of those standards likely were constructed to an even lower standard of wind resistence capability. That could well explain why the damage seemed so spotty.

The thing I can't get away from though is the lack of any sustained observed winds onshore much higher than 100 mph. In fact, were there any observed sustained winds of 100?

[baygirl_1]

Here's an article from today's Mobile Register comparing Ivan and Frederic. Very interesting. Plus, they address the lack of wind observations.
http://www.al.com/news/mobileregister/i ... 524260.xml

(NOTE: You may have to sign in with your zip code and year of birth, but there is no charge.)