Alzheimer's

[azsnowman]

Sorry for the sarcasim there, it was needed to lighten the mood here Now this is JUST my opinion for what it's worth mind you.......I truly believe that there ARE some cases where the criminal IS legally insane, you would HAVE to be!

Dennis

[Miss Mary]

My question is, who determines who's *normal* and who's *insane*? I mean, do we REALLY know? Heck, who knows, maybe the mentally ill ARE normal and we're the outsiders here!

Dennis

Good questions! I have no answers for you Dennis. But your post prompted me to share something someone (I know I'm so vague, but I forget who said this!) said to me once. I was in high school and we were commenting on how utterly good and sweet children with Down Syndrome are. This girl said "what if they are the normal ones and we're the abnormal ones? All this time we've been told we're the normal ones but I'm not so sure about that." I've thought about her comments a few times in my life since. Our local Kroger store hires special needs employees. That's the kindest way I can say that. And that just makes me feel so good to shop there. I think my entire community looks out for them, as my family does. I don't know where I'm going with ~this~ post Dennis but I wanted to share that with you.

Mary

[petal*pusher]

Hah! I sure agree Dennis!

When I first started my job at school after 25 years in the "industry".....I was almost embarassed that when the particulars of each seperate syndrome or condition was explained/discussed......I found myself saying "Hmm.....I do that.....oh, oh, I do THAT too......you mean this isn't normal thinking???"

(Actually, it is easy to blame my "left-handed way of thinking" on a lot of this!) Us Lefties DO see things differently don-cha-know!

EXACTLY WHO determines some of this stuff anyhow? And each year NEW maladies seem to pop up. (This past year I had a girl with "Fragile X Syndrome......very interesting also.)

The particular thought process, actions, and sometimes physical characteristics often determine what is "different". Look around any crowd of people......there's a lot of "different" there!! A mongoloid child has obvious characteristics......but may have very different levels of accomplishments. I saw a former student last week that is an obvious Alcohol Syndrome baby.......didn't realize this when he was in class.

Such an interesting thing the brain is..........so much for us all to learn and accept!......p

[stormie_skies]

Unfortunately, I think many of the more "common" mental illnesses are overdiagnosed, so people tend to take them less seriously over time. However, I have NO doubt that mental illnesses can be very real. I have had the odd luck of having both a roommate and a close male friend who were VERY bi-polar (aka manic depressive). Anyone who lives with people with a condition like this learns the symptoms the hard way - the mood swings, the irrational behavior, the extreme ups and downs that manifest themselves randomly.

My roommate went off her medication completely for many months - some while I lived with her, and some afterwards. I watched her entire cycle. When she was manic, she would work 18 hour days, sleep very little, make to-do lists that would rival the dictionary in length, and do unexplanable things like charging 6 of the same designer sweater in the same color, size and style, even though she was facing bankruptcy.

Several months after I moved out, she moved into her depressive phase. She stopped cleaning, wouldnt eat, and ended up in the hospital on suicide watch. I helped her family remove all the sharp objects from her home so she could return to it (supervised, of course).

I have no doubt that what she went through was real, and the difference in her behavior and her feelings once she was properly medicated again was undeniable. Im sure there are people who fake illness to get out of their responsibilities, and it infuriates me - but its also just as sad to see people deny the existence of mental illnesses completely, when so many people have to struggle with them every day.

[azskyman]

I've often wondered who sets the benchmarks for sanity in a criminal case, too. Sometimes it seems that even if you switch stories, confuse people, seem confused yourself, you've already crossed the line.

I'm the kind of guy who would get nailed for something minor while people who demonstrate a certain kind of demeanor can get miles out of the same situation.

Recently had an employee in another part of our operation in Florida who claimed she was too stressed out at work...needed to get medical attention. Made a few wierd phone calls to other employees, and bingo...she's been on company disability for weeks and weeks.

I try that..and I'd be shown the door and have a boot imprint in my behind.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Some people use it to their advantage in even the most serious of situations.

[Miss Mary]

That's the thing Steve - some people use it to their advantage, which is very unfortunate for those afflicted with mental illness, who need help the most. I have no doubt it's real but also believe there are certain individuals who use it to their advantage. My family and I have said for years our mother has never really been 'with it'. Now she's not a danger to society but for some reason we can't quite figure out, she's never be able to really relate well to others. She looks at life from her own perspective, which we all do at times, but my mom does it 99.9% of the time! Drives us all crazy - oops, figure of speech. My daughters are old enough to ask questions now - why is Grandma like this? Were you ever close with her? I said yes, as a child. There's a switch in my mom's brain that I swear she can't get past childhood. She constantly talks about my daughters' little kid days (they are 14 and 17 now). She wonders why we don't pop over a lot more than we do, call her on the phone, but she never asks what's going on in their lives NOW (summer jobs, high school, clubs, meetings, college process). She mentions how they loved to dress their dolls up when little or times they went shopping. She's done this to me my ENTIRE life! I've tried to get thru to her - Mom, can't we relate as two adults, forget we are mother and daughter for a moment. You see she does have a few close friendships and somehow can treat them as adults, we all can't figure that one out. My dad, rest his soul, had to put with a lot of $@&^. Pardon my language, or typo! Best example I have of my trying to wade thru the muck is when I drove her to my brother's father-in-law's funeral (a much beloved man in his family). The perfect husband, father, uncle, etc. My mom began to resent hearing all the good things about him I imagine. She wanted to push her way into all the family's plans that day - even the immediate family's plan to have dinner together that evening. At this point I was losing patience, my mom kept going on and on about how she thought my dad was a good guy before she married him (he was, thank you very much) and how they eventually divorced. How it caused us kids turmoil (I was 17 when they split, my brothers 26 and 27! We were actually relieved they parted!). We weren't kids and were quite happy our dad could finally have some peace in his life. Somewhere along the line I spoke my mind in the car - I said this isn't about YOU mother but rather Kenny's father-in-law! Let's focus on how THAT family is holding up right now, let's say a prayer for THEM. Well, my mother grabbed her chest, wailed and carried on, said I was giving her a heart attack.

That was the last time I ever spoke my mind! For over 10 years now I pretend my mom is saying nice, complimentary things to me - not mean, unkind comments or actually, bizarre things! My brothers ask how her behavior doesn't bother me - I say hey it's a game I play - I pretend we have a normal mother! When I've given one of her wacky compliments (the farthest from a true compliment) I say - why thank you Mom, that's so nice of you to say! Now am I crazy to do this? I dunno. It's just the way I had to look at the situation. Like I sugggested to Stormsfury in his thread, I figured out one day I will not be able to change my mom. She is the way she is. So I decided to change the way I relate to her. Sounds unrealistic to some but it works for our relationship, which isn't much to start with.

Wow, sharing all of that, really-really makes me miss my dad now. That's what irks my mom - when she does push a few too many buttons, she knows it just makes me miss him more. He was the parent I related well with.

Mary

[Guest]

If there is any morsel of comedic sense to your plight at all Miss Mary, it is the fact that in certain parts of your story, especially the 'wailing and giving me a heart attack' part, I couldn't help but envision your Mother as similar to the loveable but wacky MOMMA on the old Mama's family sitcom/skit. If you're at all familiar with that comparison, I hope it can bring you just a little chuckle to lighten up the load for just a bit.

[Miss Mary]

If there is any morsel of comedic sense to your plight at all Miss Mary, it is the fact that in certain parts of your story, especially the 'wailing and giving me a heart attack' part, I couldn't help but envision your Mother as similar to the loveable but wacky MOMMA on the old Mama's family sitcom/skit. If you're at all familiar with that comparison, I hope it can bring you just a little chuckle to lighten up the load for just a bit.

LedzeplinII - Yeah, I can see that image and I am smiling. I remember that show!!! Vicki Lawrence sure portrayed that role perfectly didn't she? My mom is a tad like Raymond's mother on Everybody Loves Raymond also. Not that bad but my mom has her "Marie ways"!!!

I need to add that my dearly departed Mother-in-Law, was nothing like that - she was truly so caring, loving, non-judgemental and supportive. She is the mother I'd most like to be like. And I think my mom knows that!!! Might be another reason why we're not close!

Mary

[Stormchaser16]

Im jumping into hot water here, and weve already moved on, but i just caught whim of this topic....

Alzheimers is a VERY REAL and VERY SAD disease. MY grandmother(god bless her) has a very strong case of it. She has an extremely hard time speaking, or putting simple sentences together. "easy words" as they are called are used by people suffering from the disease because other words are too hard to say. When describing something "nice" is a common word to hear, as it is easier to say then "great" or "good".... it sad I know, but it is true. Simple tasks become extremely difficult to grasp and do. Memory just fades extremely quickly, this is perhaps the number one sign and number one symptom of the disease. Long term events are still present in my grandmothers memory, however if you tell her to put the garage door down after you pull out, or to lock the doors, it is very common to come home and see the garage door open or find the doors unlocked. Many times things will be moved around, you can tell the person not to move something, or leave it there, but then you go to find it later, and it is missing. A major factor in the disease is denial. Do not ever confront a person suffering from it about something that they have done because it gets way too emotional. The list of things go on and on, but i do not have the heart or the time to go on and describe them as it makes me sad enough writing this and telling you the things that my grandmother has to suffer from. I know the time i have left with her is running shorter every day, and I know that everyday i and others around her grow more distant as she fades further into this saddening and disheartening disease that is all too real.

[GalvestonDuck]

I never really got to explain further (or did I?) that my point in asking this wasn't to question Alzheimer's.

Of course, I know it's real. But my point was to understand how people feel about other mental illnesses in younger people. I often read where someone wants to hang someone by their toes after a crime is committed by a person claiming insanity. Yes, I know and totally believe that that defense is overused and I'm just as guilty of expressing that anger towards some killers/assailants. However, when the crime is the result of a person's response and behavior during an episode related to a mental illness, should that person be punished the same as one who acts out in cold blood? I mean, when a person is not "there" mentally, when they don't understand reality from fantasy, when they don't know what they're doing, there can still be tragic consequences. And they are at fault, to a degree, if they understand their mental illness already and fail to keep it under control (if possible).

If I pet a cat too much or go horseback riding, I know darn well that my eyes will water, itch, and puff up, I'll sneeze, and my throat will get swollen because I am allergic to cats and horses. Those are all physical responses of my allergies. I can take medicine to tame and/or stifle the histamine stimulation in my body and prevent a reaction. But if I don't, there's nothing I can do to stop my body from doing what it does when I have an allergic attack. I don't react to dogs, hamsters, rabbits, ducks , dolphins, or snakes. I've never petted a baby seal before. But what if I did and had a reaction? I don't take allergy medicine on a regular basis and wouldn't necessarily have it with me if I ever see a seal. So am I too blame if I have a reaction which I can't control and that I didn't not expect to experience?

Same for someone with mental illness. If they KNOW they have the disease and take medication to regulate their brain's chemistry, that's good. But what about someone who's never had an episode before and therefore they are not taking any medication? What if that very first episode is the one that makes the news? What if that first breakdown is the one where a guy takes a rifle up to the top of the UT tower in Austin and fires off 200 or so rounds, killling several people down below before being killed himself? What if it's the one where the mother dangles her baby off a highway bridge before dropping the baby and then jumping herself? Do we blame them because they never had a prior episode or warning sign -- a previous suicide attempt, an outburst, whatever?

[Persepone]

All "forgetfulness" in the elderly (or not so elderly) is not Alzheimer's disease. Alzheimer's is actually quite specific. Other specific illnesses cause some similar/overlapping symptoms. I think it is important to find out which disease is causing the problem so as to treat, if possible--but above all to understand what is going ton--and also to protect those around the person.

The bottom line is that if someone is mentally ill, it's an explanation--but if that mental illness causes "harm" (physical, psychological, etc.) then there is a question of "greater good."

Many states do not take driver's licenses away from the elderly &/or people who suffer from diseases that should preclude their driving. I know of one licensed driver with a firm diagnosis of Alzheimer's! If he hits someone and injures/kills them, his victim is still injured or dead.

Understanding helps with the hurt, but I still think that people need a lot of support and understanding when dealing with someone with any mental illness--and in some cases, I think there is an argument for taking children "out of harm's way" etc.

AZsnowman: I understand your concerns. But over time I've come to realize/understand that yes, there is a definite line between the "normal" and the mentally ill.

I grew up in a household with abusive parents and so for a long time, I did not truly understand "normal." And I believe that there were probably "mental illness" explanations for my parents' behavior. The bottom line is that it did serious damage! And, in my personal quest for "normalcy," I often asked your question about who the "outsider" was--partly because I was the "outsider" in my family. (And I did not have any friends--and my parents did not have friends, etc. because the whole thing was very isolating. It was only after my escape and quest for "normalcy" that I developed a strong network of friends and only then was I able to gain some perspective.

On the fringes, there may be some questions about who is normal and who is insane, but when someone has a serious, diagnosable mental illness, there is no longer any question. If you are around someone who is motivated by "voices" to do terrible things to their children, whose behavior and moods are totally unpredictable and where cause and effect, etc. seem totally lacking, etc. you eventually are able to sort out who is "normal" and who is "insane." Even if you grow up in a household where "insane" is the norm...

I have to think, having lived with mentally ill people as a child, that if their illness is such that they cannot be responsible for their actions, then they need to be restrained from harming others. I, for one, would have been MUCH better off in the worst "social services" scenario than I was in my home. Should we have been taken away from our parents? You bet!

It is sheer dumb luck that they were not successful in killing me or my siblings. Frankly, as a child, I did not really expect to grow up. Once it finally sank in that they were probably trying to kill me/us, I left home and stayed gone. Had they been successful, would they have pulled an insanity defense. I think they would have gotten off on insanity.

I think that people who commit crimes when they are insane need "confinement" to the extent that they are prevented from harming others. Punishment does not work because they truly don't see what they do/did as "wrong" or "bad" etc. That's what makes it insane! They also don't necessarily appear to be insane to other people. One example (there wer many of similar severity) of potentially murderous behavior: my mother once threw me out of a moving car going pretty fast and I probably would have been dead if it hadn't been a narrow road and I fell in a soggy drainage ditch that had been rain softened... But I think she would have been "smart enough" to claim it had been an accident... A lot of other stuff could have been explained away as "accidents." Both parents were pretty clever at what they did. They were "aware" on some level.

But I don't think "punishment" would have worked because to the day they died, they never had any sense of remorse over their behavior. My observation is that when "normal" people do something in a rage, etc. they are somehow sorry afterwards. My parents were never "sorry" for anything they did and actually did not see anything wrong with it--even though some of it was far beyond "normal."

So what do you do about people who commit crimes and who are mentally ill? I do not think they should be set free where they can continue to harm others. However, I don't think punishment is meaningful as "punishment" so I opt for "confinement" that prevents future occurrences.

The bottom line is that whether you take a driver's license away from an Alzheimer's patient or confine someone who harms/kills another person while "insane," you are abridging freedoms, etc. of that person, but protecting the rest of the world from the harm they can do. And I'm not sure that the mentally ill can be "rehabilitated" in the same way that a normal person might be.

Interesting thread.

[DaylilyDawn]

My dad passed away on July 9 1996 of Alzheimers so don't tell me that it is an act. When your parent looks at you and asks "who the he!! are you? you will know that it is no act.

[petal*pusher]

Persepone, I have to say your post took courage. You have brought a unique perspective to this interesting and thought-provoking discussion. Also.....bless your heart......and know I admire the choices you have made in your life.

I'm not so sure I understand that fine line that defines "normal" either! Using Personepone's life as an example, perhaps his parents were both raised in environments that made them think their behavior was the norm. How terribly sad.......generation after generation repeating this cycle.

Duck.....I wonder the same things. The huge number of syndromes, etc. under that "Mental Illness" umbrella is rather intimidating! What about some of the medicines that actually CAUSE mental illness/irrational behavior......remember some of those meds given to teenagers for depression that brought about several suicides?? What about us "common folk" (normal???) that have gone thru instances in their lives that have caused depression?? I know I've been there a few times.

We are in such a fast-paced world.....and the stimulation from every possible angle reacts differently for each of us. I see daily the results of over diagnosing our young people and the race to keep naming new syndromes........often excuses to explain their behaviors and actions without the realization that individuals actually exist in our society! (Nowadays, those of us who are left-handed are considered to have learning disabilities!!)

About your original question on Alzhiemers......I still marvel at the human brain.....and the particular changes this disease makes for those affected. I visit my Mom each week, and see the progression in her and the other "clients"........each at a different pace, but all going down the same pathway. Both inlaws have also been diagnosed with Alzhiemers......and he is STILL driving.....very scary, but how do we get those keys?!

Stormchaser16.....please know I'm sending positive vibes your way.....p

[DaylilyDawn]

Petal*Pusher if your inlaws are still driving and they have Alzheimers, you need to talk their doctors about having an assessment exam on their driving abilities by a specialist in the field of elderly care.

[Persepone]

Good iea about the assessment exam on driving abilities, but it is extraordinarily difficult to get people suffering from Alzheimers (in earlier stages at least when they are aware that something is wrong, but not really wanting to face an Alzheimers diagnosis--or any other diagnosis that would mean losing license, and hence independence) to submit to such an examination!

Many states do not have any laws that would force such an examination and many states do not have any laws that force re-examinations of elderly people, etc.

Last time I knew, Connecticut had something like 100 licensed drivers who were actually 100 years old!

We used to have a neighbor in CT who was legally blind and who continued to drive--"just to doctor's appointments, the grocery store, etc." with his wife in the car--and she would navigate! Apparently she told him, speed up, slow down, stop, turn right, turn left, etc. Obviously this guy had no business on the road and we all reported him because we all feared for our safety, for our children's safety, etc. We eventually moved, but for all I know, this is still going on.

Apparently you have to wait until he actually hits someone or something to get his license away from him!

I know of one person diagnosed with Alzheimer's here in MA who is driving! Again, apparently in many states, the authorities don't have laws in place to get these drivers off the road. And, of course, if they do, then someone has to drive them around... Public transportation in many areas is either totally nonexistent or terribly deficient.