NTSB Blames Pilot Molin In 587 Crash

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#21 Postby GalvestonDuck » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:29 pm

Sanibel wrote:Sure, whatever you say. But I'd like for someone to explain to me how a government agency violating US laws with impunity isn't "political"???


Easy now...


I think we can discuss some newsworthy things (political or not) on the OT board also. A lot of OT posters refrain from posting, or sometimes even reading anything at all, in the Political Arena because things get so heated there. That's one of the main reasons the Arena was created -- to keep the strife and stress to a minimum for S2K regs who prefer not to see it or have to peruse through it to get to regular posts.

So far, this discussion has remained at a civil level so I see no reason to move it into the craziness of the Political Arena (especially this close to the election). Furthermore, this gives OT regs a chance to participate in the thread also. However, if it gets nasty, we'll have mop this, along with the mud, on downstairs. :)
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#22 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:54 pm

Sanibel wrote:Sure, whatever you say. But I'd like for someone to explain to me how a government agency violating US laws with impunity isn't "political"???


Easy now...


he made his decision regardless and this is not even remotely political.
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#23 Postby vbhoutex » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:25 pm

I take it you are implying that this was terrorism or possibly terrorism??? That is what I get from the postings so far. Is that the point of this thread or did I miss it? I must say it sure sounds like a "cover up" at least on the surface. I am surprised none of our watch dog groups have picked up on this yet, if there is indeed anything to pick up on.
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#24 Postby nystate » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:03 pm

2) They blatantly denied it was pilot Molin saying "Try Escape?"


Even if he was saying that, it makes no sense in reference to a bomb. Escape from the bomb? More like escape from the wake turbulence.

3) A police officer is normally a top-credibility witness. They ignored not only a police officer, but a fire fighter too. 27 other persons witnessed some kind of flames, explosion, or explosion sound PRIOR to the tail falling off. NTSB categorically ignored them. A wake vortex encounter doesn't cause flames and smoke (find one for me). A tollbooth video is not a 'mistaken witness'.


US Air 427 crashed near a shopping mall and near a soccer game. Dozens, if not a couple hundred people saw it go down. They said it was in flames. We now know it wasn't. Just like the people who say that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was a 707. It was a bright day, what they saw was most likely a reflection off of the aircraft.

At this point any reference to NTSB is no longer credible...


Hardly. I trust the NTSB investigators, who have had years of training and experience, over a group of conspiracy theorists.

Until you can prove to me that the rudder didn't snap off due to improper rudder use during wake turbulence, your theory will have no credibility with me.

This is almost as absurd as the people who think that it was a missile who hit the Pentagon...
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#25 Postby nystate » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:06 pm

vbhoutex wrote:I take it you are implying that this was terrorism or possibly terrorism??? That is what I get from the postings so far. Is that the point of this thread or did I miss it? I must say it sure sounds like a "cover up" at least on the surface. I am surprised none of our watch dog groups have picked up on this yet, if there is indeed anything to pick up on.


There isn't. Explosions on aircraft leave evidence behind that investigators cannot miss. Traces of explosives can usually be found as well. There was no such evidence on this aircraft.

Also, if it was a bomb, it would make more sense to detonate it at a high altitude. Rapid decompression would take place, and the aircraft would be going at a much higher speed, so there is more probability of the aircraft crashing than if you detonated it at about 2,000 feet or so.
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#26 Postby nystate » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:19 pm

Also, about the "max power" remark-

He said "max power" after he hit the wake turbulence and there were sounds of large thumps. Look at the animation- the aircraft was being buffeted all over the place and the nose had started to go down at the time he said "max power." He was probably trying to get the nose back up and get out of the wake turbulence.

Absolutely wrong. Look up JAL 1985. A 747 lost its tail due to a bulkhead failure and flew on tail-less for several hours. It crashed into a mountain when it reached an area it couldn't turn away from.


The aircraft was at a high altitude, and had no control of which way it was going. AA 587 was at about 2,000 feet doing around 220 kts.
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#27 Postby Sanibel » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:34 pm

If you are sincere, answer one simple question:

If the tollbooth video shows a smoke trail coming from 587 while the tail is still attached, what caused it? (NTSB offers no response)
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#28 Postby nystate » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:35 pm

Sanibel wrote:
If you are sincere, answer one simple question:

If the tollbooth video shows a smoke trail coming from 587 while the tail is still attached, what caused it? (NTSB offers no response)


Give me some time and I will give you a reason. I don't know this off of the top of my head, but I am sure that there is an explanation.
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#29 Postby Sanibel » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:46 pm

Even if he was saying that, it makes no sense in reference to a bomb. Escape from the bomb? More like escape from the wake turbulence.




A couple of important things here. You are admitting the possibility that NTSB lied about the "Try Escape?" phrase. So we have established that NTSB is 'unreliable' as well as you seem to be so strict about with the witnesses.

"Escape from a bomb?" - Well yes! 'Escape' is the Airbus cockpit autopilot release in order to add throttle and control the aircraft. The Airbus was threatening to stall because it had gone into acceleration. 'Acceleration' is when an aircraft goes sideways from forward flight like sideslipping. The common procedure for pilots in this situation is to go full-throttle in order to stabilize the aircraft's atittude.

1/10th of a G does not throw an aircraft into the violent throws you cited from the re-animation. A shoe-bomb blasting through the side of the aircraft would. A shoe-bomb would also cause the smoke trail seen on the Bridge Authority security camera video. A shoe-bomb would also cause the Flight Data Recorder to stop functioning. A 1/10 G wake force would not.

Aviation engineers commented that it was highly unusual for a tail loss to cause the engines to both rip-off. This aircraft obviously underwent stresses far beyond a wake vortex.



US Air 427 crashed near a shopping mall and near a soccer game. Dozens, if not a couple hundred people saw it go down. They said it was in flames. We now know it wasn't. Just like the people who say that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was a 707. It was a bright day, what they saw was most likely a reflection off of the aircraft.



I haven't studied US Air 427. You'll get varying reports from any eyewitness group in ANY situation. What you are doing is making an invalid argument for the dropping of ALL eyewitnesses in ALL cases. But that doesn't hold water. If we followed your loose standard, there would be no eyewitnesses ever for anything. It's simply a foolish argument. If you research NTSB and its history, there were crashes in the past that were determined solely by eyewitness information.

You haven't adequately answered why the Bridge Authority tollbooth video camera caught a clear and apparent smoke/vapor trail coming from the aircraft? This smoke trail was corroborated by many of the eywitnesses and was detailed as having been visible while the tail was still attached. The significance being that NTSB depends on the rudder ripping off to initiate all the other events. They even said this in the NY Times article wrapping up the investigation and pinning it on Molin. They said the explosion and smoke trail was from the engine ripping off and fuel igniting. What they forgot to mention is that all of the eyewitnesses saw both the engines and tail still on when they saw those things...



Hardly. I trust the NTSB investigators, who have had years of training and experience, over a group of conspiracy theorists.



Your arguments obviously begin and end here and virtually ignore most of the significance of the evidence I've taken pains to reproduce.

Answer why NTSB would call it a mechanical failure on the evening of the crash? This was unprecedented and a violation of every known scientific investigatory rule. You seem to demand empirical proof on one hand (which you ignore) while giving NTSB free reign on the other.

Why did NTSB say it wasn't Molin and he wasn't saying "Try Escape?" when everybody else did? I trust a father knows his own son's voice? If not, the answering machine spectrograph did. Still doubting that one? Still demanding "proof"??? "I trust NTSB". Hmm...



Until you can prove to me that the rudder didn't snap off due to improper rudder use during wake turbulence, your theory will have no credibility with me.



There's enough there for any objective observer. Just what you refuse to answer says enough in itself to me. But you've said more than you realize above. You unwittingly revealed the flaw in the investigation. After all, this is exactly what the investigation did. It focused on a tail-cause and sought to dismiss all other causes. The only problem with that approach is it isn't a sound investigation. A sound investigation starts with ALL the evidence and establishes a pattern. But don't fool yourself that a corrupted agency has honestly examined all the evidence. We've already caught them trying to cover-over facts. Your assertion that they can be trusted has already been disproven above. And, as you have displayed, it can only be offered by avoiding most of the scientific forensics and credible eyewitnesses...

I'd love to see, in person, "nystate" confronting retired New York City police officer Lynch and telling him the orange/red flame ball he saw blast out of the side of the aircraft was "sunlight gleaming off the fuselage" (Lynch was on the opposite side from the sun that morning)...


This is almost as absurd as the people who think that it was a missile who hit the Pentagon...


What is absurd is name calling persons "conspiracy theorists" without checking their aviation engineering credentials or even reviewing their forensics...



[/quote]
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#30 Postby nystate » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:20 am

A couple of important things here. You are admitting the possibility that NTSB lied about the "Try Escape?" phrase. So we have established that NTSB is 'unreliable' as well as you seem to be so strict about with the witnesses.


Well, after further research it seems like "try escape" could have been confused with "nice game." More than likely it was two controllers in the background referring to the previous night's Giants game.

Also, can you please give me a source to the 1/10th G information? Wake turbulence, especially from a 747, can be violent sometimes. I have no doubt that it could buffet an A300 to the point that the pilot applied full throttle in order to escape from the turbulence.

You haven't adequately answered why the Bridge Authority tollbooth video camera caught a clear and apparent smoke/vapor trail coming from the aircraft? This smoke trail was corroborated by many of the eywitnesses and was detailed as having been visible while the tail was still attached. The significance being that NTSB depends on the rudder ripping off to initiate all the other events. They even said this in the NY Times article wrapping up the investigation and pinning it on Molin. They said the explosion and smoke trail was from the engine ripping off and fuel igniting. What they forgot to mention is that all of the eyewitnesses saw both the engines and tail still on when they saw those things...


Still doing research on the tollbooth camera. Also, I'm not trying to discredit all witness reports, but just saying that they do have a habit of being wrong.

Answer why NTSB would call it a mechanical failure on the evening of the crash?


Maybe because they didn't want to destroy the airline industry. If they had said anything else, people would be too afraid to fly. It would have be much easier to tell the public it wasn't terrorism, and if you find any evidence then come out later and admit that you were wrong.

Also, like I said earlier, if the terrorists wanted more of a guarantee of a crash, they would have detonated the device at a higher altitude.
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#31 Postby nystate » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:41 am

Well then, if we are speaking of witnesses, then consider this fact:

Some of these individuals mentioned observing fire or smoke before the plane impacted the ground, although the majority of them do not. Although at this time no physical evidence of an inflight explosion or fire has been discovered, the Board is taking into full consideration the observations of all witnesses.

From the NTSB...
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#32 Postby Sanibel » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:13 pm

Well, after further research it seems like "try escape" could have been confused with "nice game." More than likely it was two controllers in the background referring to the previous night's Giants game.



Nice try, but no. You're not paying attention again. I'm sure Molin's father and his police officer friend (usually given credibility in witness accounts - but strangely not in this case) know the difference between two guys talking about a Giants game and Molin. But you've completely ignored the answering machine voice spectrograph print match to Molin. Why doesn't NTSB get some voice spectrographs and try matching them to the men's voices who were in the background that day? That is their job isn't it?

If anybody else is reading this, does anybody notice how a matching voice spectrograph is ignored as if it wasn't good enough? People who demand firm proof then ignore an irrefutable spectrograph? Hmm. Why are you ignoring plain and obvious forensics "nystate"???

But there's more. The very moment 'nystate' assures us the phrase heard was "nice game" said by two air traffic controllers in the background, strangely enough the cockpit recorder records Flight 587 going to full throttle in an Airbus emergency "Escape" manuever. WHAT A COINCIDENCE! Hey, 'nystate', maybe you can research that one too and find a reason. Let us know...


Also, can you please give me a source to the 1/10th G information? Wake turbulence, especially from a 747, can be violent sometimes. I have no doubt that it could buffet an A300 to the point that the pilot applied full throttle in order to escape from the turbulence




It's in the USREAD site. I'll look it up and link it. Rest assured thousands of aircraft take-off daily through other aircrafts' wakes all around the world. If commercial aircraft were that sensitive to wake vortices they would be crashing daily. 1/10th of a G wouldn't cause a "thump". This was followed by a frame rattle caught on the cockpit microphone. Molin was an experienced pilot capable of flying through a wake vortex without ripping the plane apart.



Still doing research on the tollbooth camera. Also, I'm not trying to discredit all witness reports, but just saying that they do have a habit of being wrong.



Which makes no difference because NTSB excluded all eyewitness reports, which in itself effectively discredits all eyewitnesses. Read USREAD on the eyewitnesses. At least 27 people saw explosions, flames, smoke, or heard an explosion WHILE the tail and engines were still visibly attached. (You can't hear glare reflections). The "ear witnesses" are significant because they specifically said their gaze was drawn to the plane because of the noise of the explosion. When they looked up they saw the tail still on, the plane struggle, and then the tail fall off. Very specific. Totally ignored by NTSB.



Maybe because they didn't want to destroy the airline industry. If they had said anything else, people would be too afraid to fly. It would have be much easier to tell the public it wasn't terrorism, and if you find any evidence then come out later and admit that you were wrong.




I don't know if you realize it or not, but you've just tacitly conceded your argument. The National Transportation Safety Board is not an arm of the political government. It is a separate agency assigned by the government to investigate the cause of American airline crashes for the American people. It is a public agency run by the government for the American people. It is not a separate authority or dictatorship. There are laws under which NTSB operates that hold it to honestly investigating crashes. It is not allowed to conspire or deliberately conceal evidence or premeditatively alter evidence for political purposes. That's illegal. It's also a breach of the United States Constitution.


"Later admit you were wrong."



Ha!



Also, like I said earlier, if the terrorists wanted more of a guarantee of a crash, they would have detonated the device at a higher altitude.



That is known as an 'ad hoc' argument. Because that could be true doesn't mean it necessarily is, or that 587 wasn't blasted by a shoe-bomb where it was.

Meanwhile most of the evidence points towards it with people trying to convince us it isn't there. That includes NTSB - the agency entrusted with finding this out.

A few weeks later Richard Reed was caught trying to detonate a shoe-bomb on a Paris to Miami American Airlines flight...
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#33 Postby Sanibel » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:19 am

Also, can you please give me a source to the 1/10th G information?



From the NTSB investigation itself:


http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2001/011120.htm
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#34 Postby Sanibel » Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:32 pm

I like the fact that the post on which my Storm2K status turns to "hurricane" is this one.


Since no one can refute any of USREAD's information I take it as silent agreement that Flight 587 crashed due to foul play.


It's clearly a violation of the Constitution for the government to break it's own sworn investigatory laws. If you read our Constitution it is meant as a mechanism to keep government from either seizing or abusing power. It's very plain that in such instances where government does so it is then incumbent upon the people to exercise Consitutional right to set things straight. The government cannot contradict itself. When it does it is no longer the government, as long as the Constitution is at its center.


These kind of matters always interest me because they are clearly important in gauging our government's fidelity to its purpose. But solely in board terms they also prove helpful in showing who is really sincere and who can confront a real argument. The information is all there. It's very telling what people do with it.

You have to remember, the heart of everything our government does is based on the Constitution. It's also the source upon which actions overseas are justified. I find it very telling that those who speak the loudest for those actions are so conspicuously absent in this case...


The FBI won't release the original, clear version of the tollbooth video. The reason they give is that 587 is "still an open case." The next time you hear the television say 587 came down because pilot Molin made the tail come off, know that they aren't telling the truth...
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#35 Postby Sanibel » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:05 pm

So the government breaks the law and people just ignore it?


Hmm...
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