corporal punishment in public schools

[Derek Ortt]

in light of the recent happenings with the Cartwheel girl being suspended, would a viable alternative be a return in all states of corporal punishment in the public schools?

IMO, bring it back and immediately. Place the teachers back in control of the classroom and some fear back in the students. I guarantee you that the fear of having your rear made black and blue, or your hands smashed until you couldn't feel pain for a week or so would make the students respect their teachers and bring order back to schools, so tht our nation's children can actually receive a good education

[streetsoldier]

Strangely...if a PARENT used a paddle (belt, other) on his/her child in Missouri, they face fines and jail time. Yet the SCHOOLS can do this to any student with absolute impunity?

I voted NO.

[Derek Ortt]

I definately dont agree with the hypocritical law in Missourri.

I believe that parents should ahve the right to discipline their children just as they had 50 years ago when kids were better behaved

[Terry]

No, no, no, no, and double darn No!

[Brent]

No. My parents sent a note to my school telling them not to do it either.

Let the parents do it.

[MGC]

Corporal punishment is legal in Mississippi. I consented to allow authories to administer same to my 3 sons. Then, when they get home they get it again. Double jeporady. Actually had a cop tell me to beat my kids more often....MGC

[george_r_1961]

in light of the recent happenings with the Cartwheel girl being suspended, would a viable alternative be a return in all states of corporal punishment in the public schools?

IMO, bring it back and immediately. Place the teachers back in control of the classroom and some fear back in the students. I guarantee you that the fear of having your rear made black and blue, or your hands smashed until you couldn't feel pain for a week or so would make the students respect their teachers and bring order back to schools, so tht our nation's children can actually receive a good education

A black and blue rear and smashed hands? Well that kind of thinking is one reason I am against corporal punishment in schools. A swat on the rear never hurt anyone but bruising and "smashing hands" is going a bit too far.

[SouthernWx]

I voted only in extreme cases....and I honestly have a problem with that...

WHY? BECAUSE there are so many teachers in public schools nowadays that lack self control or moral ethics; many who cannot be trusted to give discipline and not abuse. In Georgia, there is a teacher arrested seemingly every week...drunk driving, drug possession, domestic abuse, contributing to the delenquency of a minor, exchanging drugs/ money with students for sex, child molestation, possession/ distribution of kiddie porno, even aggravated assault (against students).

There's a former teacher in Atlanta serving time right now for throwing a 10 yr old boy into the classroom door so hard it fractured his arm and shoulder. The former Georgia state school superientendant (Linda Schrenko) is under indictment for stealing over $600,000 of taxpayer school funds designated for special needs children....used $9300 to get a facelift --she's a former teacher and school principal

Don't get me wrong....I do believe in discipline (including spanking WITHIN REASON), both at home and at school, but there are so many teachers who I'm afraid would abuse the paddle and injure a child. I don't want to see children being taken to emergency rooms with fractures or severe bruises from an out of control teacher.

I've been the victim of child abuse....so has my younger sister. Our own father once fractured sis's wrist in an out of control rage. To meet my father, you'd NEVER believe he was capable of such violence...one reason it wasn't stopped (Becky's teachers didn't believe her stories of dad punching her, kicking her, throwing her into the wall). My father wasn't drunk during those rages....he wasn't high when he hurt sis.
He just went into a rage and lost control...and hurt his 100 lb teenage daughter so badly she wanted to die

I've worked at schools (both as a custodian and security officer)...several of my friends are teachers, so I know how many teachers out there abuse alcohol, and some drugs as well. I've seen teachers so drunk they could barely stand in the teachers lounge....they were in no condition to be disciplining children.

I don't want a teacher with an attitude problem, lack of self control; or alcohol/ drug issues spanking my nieces or nephews. They are generally respectful and well behaved kids. While sis has spanked Maddie and Nick a time or two...she and David know in most cases, there are alternatives to spanking a child to make them mind.

My 38 yr old brother in law says he never recieved a spanking....not at home or school...not in his life. Neither of his two older brothers were ever spanked; David is a computer executive...his brothers are a doctor and psychiatrist respectively....neither of the three has ever been arrested.

I was a good kid...those vicious beatings by my father didn't make me behave....they made me hate him. Dad's abuse of Becky didn't make her behave...they made her worse, caused her to develop serious eating disorders that nearly killed her twice. She also overdosed once at age 16....told me later she wanted to die, to escape being hurt by dad (that's when I threw our father out of the house; made him leave....to save sis's life).

The only way Becky would ever agree to Maddie, Nick, or Jake being spanked at school is IF SHE or DAVE is there to witness it. From some of the teachers I've known, what I know my "all-American dad" did, and the teachers I see arrested on the evening news...I don't blame her of Dave...not one bit.

[vbhoutex]

Simply put there are too many teachers who are out of control themselves. When I was in school corporal punishment was allowed. I saw it abused way too many times to allow it to be used on my children. Simply put not even a parent should be allowed to hit their child so hard that ther are bruied or bloody. Mine were disciplined plenty and they were spanked, but they were never abused and that is what making someone black and blue is.

[streetsoldier]

I have to admit to a personal bias in my voting; I was horribly abused at home, going to/at/coming home from school (sometimes by kids I didn't even know), and again at home (physical/emotional, starvation, isolation, you-name-it). And it's taken me over 30 years to "heal" to some degree...in truth, I never will.

Therefore, unless in defense of one's life or that of another, in police service or at war, I do not advocate any use of force; especially as a "disciplinary" tool. I have LIVED through the results theerof, and I wouldn't wish that on ANY child.

[Derek Ortt]

a black and blue mark goes away rather quickly. I have been told this by some who received corporal punishment and resulting black and blue marks.

I'd much rather have a black and blue mark on a student, than run the risk of a school shooting

[vbhoutex]

If a student is going to plan and execute a school shooting a black and blue mark from a beating will probably only inflame his passions more and make the act more likely to happen IMO.

[streetsoldier]

Think of it this way, from a child's point of view; all he or she REALLY learns from being beaten is that "bigger. stonger people have a 'right' to enforce their will on smaller, weaker people".

Is THAT the message you want to instill in your kids? Fine...join the Taliban.

[Lindaloo]

Bill, comparing corporal punishment to the Taliban is extreme. Nor is comparing corporal punishment to child abuse, the two are just not the same.

The message that kids are getting today is they can do what they want to do with no consequences. Example, my daughter and four of her friends scribbled their initials on the gym wall. The principal wanted to suspend them and make the parents pay to repaint the entire gym wall. Well, being the person that I am this was not going to fly with me. I marched right in to that office and asked him what message HE is sending those girls by making the parents pay for their mistakes. I suggested he make them come in on a Saturday with a sponge and bucket and clean the wall themselves. This principal is a Sergeant in the military so I had some leverage there. The girls each got two licks and had to scrub the entire gym wall. Now THAT is a message, making them held responsible for their own actions. This is missing from our kids today because of the laws in place to punish parents for what their kids do. What happened to kids being held responsible for their own actions?

Teachers should not be giving out corporal punishment, that should be the principal's duty.

[Guest]

Strangely...if a PARENT used a paddle (belt, other) on his/her child in Missouri, they face fines and jail time. Yet the SCHOOLS can do this to any student with absolute impunity?

I voted NO.

Same, here I voted no............You're kidding me! Punishment of this sort is permissable in MIssouri Schools?!? That is new to me. Amazing!

[blumoon]

Are any of you parents? I am and I don't hit my kids at all. I wouldn't let anyone else do so either. How does having someone beat you lead to obedience? Do you find it acceptable to hit an adult if you are angry? The law doesn't. Why is it any different for children?

[coriolis]

I voted no, even though physical punishment can be effective. Things have changed quite a bit since I was a kid. When I was growing up, child abuse was never heard of. I grew up with fear as a motivation, both at home and at school. It worked. It kept me out of trouble. I'm not sure that it made me a better person though. I got maybe 10 whoopings by my father as I was growing up. It was enough to make me show respect and to never challenge him. I was thought of as a "good kid." It did not really teach me to be "good" though. It just taught me to be compliant on the surface, but otherwise just don't get caught. Suffice it to say that I did a lot of bad things without getting caught. Had I got caught on some of them, my life would have taken a decidedly different turn. When I did get the whooping, it was done out of anger, with no "talking to." One of the results of this upbringing is that I have problems with letting my guard down to people. My wife says that I am sneaky, even though I'm not doing anything wrong. It seems these patterns follow us. Once I had my own kids, I followed the pattern of hitting them out of anger.

Nowadays, everyone is aware of child abuse. Even in the schools, they teach the kids about it. My kids come home with the attitude of "you're not allowed to hit me." I had one run in with the county Children and Youth agenency, because one of my kids went to school with a bruised rear end. The school as a matter of policy is required to report it. The agency did their investigation and determined that it was "unfounded." The C&Y agent reinforced that corporal punishment is allowed. While it was a vindication of a sort, it was a situation where no one wins. The kids feel that reporting an incident gives them some leverage, and the parents have the fear of being reported.

This was part of the reason that my oldest son Ryan had a lot of challenges. He wasn't getting consistent messages here at home, and he had learned that he could challenge us - even physically. Things got worse, and finally he ended up in court over an assault incident (on me!). I felt a lot of guilt, because from an early age, he learned violence from me, and then HE got in trouble. He's presently in a foster home and has made a lot of progress. We've had a lot of counseling, which we couldn't have afforded previously, but now we get as part of his treatment.

I'm reading a book now about non-violent parenting. It's pretty good - it sounds good in theory. I don't have it mastered yet, and the kids are smart enough to challenge it every step of the way.

Bottom line is that whether we like it or not, things have changed. Parents are not the absolute rulers with total immunity. In some ways that's a good thing, as Streetsoldier can attest to. Today's parents do feel confused and powerless, because the tools that they learned are somewhat outdated, and they need to learn new tools.

One thing that is a powerful message to the kids is how the parents live. They have a strong B.S. detector. If a parent says it, they need to live it. There's no more "do as I say and not as I do." The parents need to have a solid relationship between themselves, and be on the same side. The parents need to pour themselves into their kids to get that close relationship from an early age. Once that relationship is cemented, then the non-violent nuances can come into play and be very effective. But I've found that if the parents are detached, without having invested in that close knit emotional bond, if the parents are hypocrites, or if the parents have their own issues, it's going to be a hell of a struggle.

[Lindaloo]

Are any of you parents? I am and I don't hit my kids at all. I wouldn't let anyone else do so either. How does having someone beat you lead to obedience? Do you find it acceptable to hit an adult if you are angry? The law doesn't. Why is it any different for children?

Corporal punishment is not about "beatings" or child abuse.

[SouthernWx]

a black and blue mark goes away rather quickly. I have been told this by some who received corporal punishment and resulting black and blue marks.

I'd much rather have a black and blue mark on a student, than run the risk of a school shooting

Tell me Derek, how many children do you have? If any, do you beat them black and blue? I certainly hope not.

Have you ever been beaten black and blue by a parent or teacher? I sincerely hope not....because I HAVE; and know firsthand while those physical bruises may heal quickly, the mental scars can last a lifetime. When I was only 10 or 11 yrs old, my father would beat me black and blue with my own toys....those orange plastic strips of Hot Wheels racing track. I threw them away...who wants toys their father uses as weapons?

I weigh 290 lbs....am strong as an ox. Why on earth do would I ever need to strike or hit a 60 or 90 lb child to make them mind? Answer...I don't; and to do so would be wrong. I made my baby sister behave when she was growing up without ever spanking her. Today at age 20, Beth respects me more than our father. I've babysat sis's children.....they mind uncle Perry, and know if they misbehave I'll punish them....but I've never had to spank them (and never will). There are better ways to make a kid mind than beating them.

I also take deep offense at anyone's assumptions that beating a child until they are bruised black and blue or their hands "smashed" until they cannot use them is okay. That's not spanking my friend...that's vicious abuse; aggravated assault by someone several times larger than the child...and IT'S WRONG!!

You also said something interesting....that beating kids in school would make them "fear" the teacher. Friend, as as uncle, I don't want my sister's children to fear me....I want them to love and respect me; and if I were a teacher, I want the same from my students. I had quite a few teachers whom I deeply respect to this day....several teachers I love and feel toward as family; teachers I'm very grateful to for their guidance...for their words of motivation and kindness.

I also had a few teachers whom I feared. Even though they never spanked me, their "threat" of viciously spanking unruly students and classroom attitude was frightening...knowing what they did to other kids. I usually never did very well in their classes (grade-wise); was so concerned with not incurring their wrath, I couldn't concentrate on the subject they were teaching. To this day, I neither care for or respect those teachers...

A loving parent who has the love and respect of their child doesn't have to spank them in order to maintain discipline.....a teacher who has the love and respect of his/ her students doesn't have to beat or scare them half to death in order to maintain discipline in the classroom.....I know this from personal experience, and from the teachers of my youth who kept control of their classroom without spanking kids or ruling through fear.

[SouthernWx]

Something else....there's a TREMENDOUS difference in spanking and beating. My younger sister has spanked Maddie and Nick a time or two. She doesn't leave bruises, nor "cut the blood" out of their legs with a switch. My grandmother spanked me a couple times...but unlike dad, she never abused me. I love and respect her more than anyone on earth.

When you use a rolled up newspaper to housebreak a puppy...you use firm but GENTLE discipline when training him. If you beat that poor little puppy senseless every time he has an accident, you'll make that puppy into a vicious and mean adult dog.

I see a lot of adults with anger management problems, and wonder how much abuse they suffered as small children. It's a fact most violent incarcerated prison offenders were abused as children.

I don't have nearly as much of a problem with spanking as I do with "abuse"...."beating a child black and blue"; beating them because you are having a bad day, or because you had too much to drink and are out of control. NEVER spank a child, NEVER put your hands on a child when you are angry. Put them in their room, and go cool off before disciplining them.