**POTENTIAL** First EUS winter storm NOV 28-DEC 1

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**POTENTIAL** First EUS winter storm NOV 28-DEC 1

#1 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:32 am

EUS snow event NOV 28-DEC 1 looking INCREASINGLY LIKELY and POSSIBLY significant.

The 0z SUN ECMWF and 0z GGEM have a s/w digging into the 4-corners region on D7 which would only be allowed to lift northward to a point after coming out into the plains previous to getting forced eastward since the 50-50 low is present, and in near textbook position held in by the strong block.

Remember the position and intensity of the 50-50 low, PV and Positive height anomaly associated w/ a -NAO are what determine whether or not an east coast snow event would occur.

Image

0z GGEM has a similar idea, and takes the NAO to the depths of the tank w/ strong 50/50 low ensuring that the northward progression of the s/w would be stopped and it would get forced westward abruptly.

Image

Image

Image

there is a s/w on the tail of the system (which you can see coming into the PAC NW at 216 hrs) as it digs into the 4-corners region--a KICKER, so I doubt it would be able to cutoff. In other words the system has to come out.

Notice also the model is building a strong OMEGA ridge/block over Greenland w/ strong 50-50 low as the s/w is tilting negative and lifting Northward. In a sense this seems similar to what we will be going through this coming wee in the plains but w/ a twist, we wont have the 50-50 low or block in place for the event this week, for the system were discussing now, there WILL BE. Having it makes a world of difference.

A -NAO can come in three flavors WRT to the location of the Positive height anomaly at h500. It can be as far east as england, or as far west a QUEBEC and BI while still qualifying.

By D10 the GGEM phases the s/w w/ an appendage associated w/ the 50-50 low/vortex near NF. Not exactly sure I buy how it’s doing it, but we have several days to watch this.

Image

My guess is that this would be a Miller B event w/ one center running into the OV or eastern low lakes and a center jumping to the MA coast. The where and the when details can be dealt with at a later time assuming this idea holds.

Im tripping the alarm folks. You’re officially forewarned!! LOL

BUT PLEASE DON’T ASK ME HOW MUCH FOR PHILLY. It’s impossible to tell anything specific from 10 days out other than to simply suggest the potential is there (which IT IS IMO). The synoptic pattern favors it; there is support from two very reliable models and now is a matter of watching and waiting.

Also a note about the pattern. The PV over SW Siberia moves eastward toward the Aleutian Islands where it becomes a new Aleutian low by 216 hrs. This could help to pump the PNA ridge and set-up a highly amplified pattern over NA to end the month and start DEC.

Furthermore, the GGEM suggests the block over Greenland will continue to retrograde westward over Labrador, the Davis Strait into QUEBEC/BI by D10.

Well 1963 looks pretty appetizing now? Huh?
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#2 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:37 am

The 12z GFS ensembles also indicating the s/w is there. Notice all the variance in the model solutions over the SW and 4-corners region on NOV 30

http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/ens/ta ... _vt216.gif
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#3 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:39 am

Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image
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#4 Postby yoda » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:59 am

Wnghs2007 wrote:Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image


True. But that image you posted does not help for NOW... as it is for 22 NOV.
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#5 Postby yoda » Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:02 am

Excellent posts wxguy25. I do as well see this threat, but not in as much detail until you described it. A Miller B event you say? Not to ask for how much, but what is better for the DC region, a Miller A or a Miller B?

I think that the PV and the positive height analomy will be the key in seeing whether or not this comes true. I hope it does, but we wills ee in future model runs and progs.
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#6 Postby Dave C » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:36 am

Yoda, Miller A would probably be better for you, as those storms don't involve redevelopment, storms that form in the gulf of Mex. and move off Hatteras would be your best bet. Many Miller B systems reform off to your east or NE and precip. remains offshore or to your north and the dreaded dry-slot can come into play aswell. That's what may happen to me in SE Mass. with system in this thread, it redevelops off our coast after primary system tracks into Great Lakes. If it reforms north or NE of me, very little snow will fall, if it forms SE or east of my area some measureable snow should occur. Hope this helps you!
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#7 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:19 am

Outstanding Post, Wxguy25! Things look good....
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#8 Postby Anonymous » Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:25 am

Thanks for the update/analysis WxGuy ! Looks like improving conditions to the overall pattern over the next 2 weeks, just as expected.
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#9 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:19 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image


No cold high, KC? That’s not what I see. Look at what’s sitting over Ontario/Quebec provinces funneling the cold air into the NE.

Image

What you posted was the 24 hr GFS valid tomorrow. I don’t see how that would be relevant.
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#10 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:21 pm

yoda wrote:Excellent posts wxguy25. I do as well see this threat, but not in as much detail until you described it. A Miller B event you say? Not to ask for how much, but what is better for the DC region, a Miller A or a Miller B?

I think that the PV and the positive height analomy will be the key in seeing whether or not this comes true. I hope it does, but we wills ee in future model runs and progs.


Miller B systems are often the reason why the DC area gets screwed so much. The h850 low jumps to the coast too far north or in many cases the SLP fails to deepen to at or below 1000mb before reaching the Jersey shore and take over as the primary SFC low.
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#11 Postby Stephanie » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:31 pm

BUT PLEASE DON’T ASK ME HOW MUCH FOR PHILLY.


:lol:

Great analysis!
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#12 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:55 pm

Looking at the 12z GFS there are no signs of a Greenland Block or 50-50 low

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... 0_168l.gif

This is a flip-flop from the 0z run which had SOME signs of those two features.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod ... 0_174l.gif

and remember the GFS is run w/ a 77km/T170 resolution at 12z.
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#13 Postby deguy50 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:05 pm

thanx again wxguy25 its great to have a met kepping us so imformed :D
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#14 Postby QCWx » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:07 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image


Nice job ripping off HKY's post.
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#15 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:14 pm

QCWx wrote:
Wnghs2007 wrote:Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image


Nice job ripping off HKY's post.


Well...LOL....I did not rip it off. Because it concerns me too. Without those highs...IM SCREWED. AND THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY TO Post it. I wanted wxguys help.
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#16 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:31 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Wnghs2007 wrote:Whats dishearting for me is, the lack of Cold High Pressure Systems in the NW Territories. A prime source for the cad scenarios (the HP origin is usually cont polar or A air, from NW/N central Canada). Those highs can make a world of diffrence from 50 and rain to 30 and ZR. I hope more of these start to form so that a cad threat will be there come later on past DEC 10th and onward.

Image


No cold high, KC? That’s not what I see. Look at what’s sitting over Ontario/Quebec provinces funneling the cold air into the NE.

Image

What you posted was the 24 hr GFS valid tomorrow. I don’t see how that would be relevant.


Well thats good to hear. HKY was scaring me when he posted that map. I posted it here so that you can see it and help offer me some analysis to see if there was or were not going to be problems with CAD situ's this year. I MUST HAVE AN ICESTORM THIS YEAR. I WONT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P :wink: :wink: :wink: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :eek: :D
Last edited by Wnghs2007 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#17 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:44 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:Well thats good to hear. HKY was scaring me when he posted that map. I posted it here so that you can see it and help offer me some analysis to see if there was or were not going to be problems with CAD situ's this year. I MUST HAVE AN ICESTORM THIS YEAR. I WANT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P :wink: :wink: :wink: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :eek: :D


Look at it this way. For the most part, warm water surrounds North America which corresponds to upward motion and lowering of pressure over water. On land you get rising pressure since the response is inversely proportional over landmasses to what it is over the water.

So getting those large Highs to build up IMO shouldn’t be a problem.
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#18 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:47 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Wnghs2007 wrote:Well thats good to hear. HKY was scaring me when he posted that map. I posted it here so that you can see it and help offer me some analysis to see if there was or were not going to be problems with CAD situ's this year. I MUST HAVE AN ICESTORM THIS YEAR. I WONT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P :wink: :wink: :wink: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :eek: :D


Look at it this way. For the most part, warm water surrounds North America which corresponds to upward motion and lowering of pressure over water. On land you get rising pressure since the response is inversely proportional over landmasses to what it is over the water.

So getting those large Highs to build up IMO shouldn’t be a problem.



I guess its just all about timing and how much cold air is avalible.
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#19 Postby wxguy25 » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:48 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:
wxguy25 wrote:
Wnghs2007 wrote:Well thats good to hear. HKY was scaring me when he posted that map. I posted it here so that you can see it and help offer me some analysis to see if there was or were not going to be problems with CAD situ's this year. I MUST HAVE AN ICESTORM THIS YEAR. I WANT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :P :wink: :wink: :wink: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :eek: :D


Look at it this way. For the most part, warm water surrounds North America which corresponds to upward motion and lowering of pressure over water. On land you get rising pressure since the response is inversely proportional over landmasses to what it is over the water.

So getting those large Highs to build up IMO shouldn’t be a problem.



I guess its just all about timing and how much cold air is avalible.


Yep, the Blizzard of 83 was a good example of that.
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#20 Postby Chris the Weather Man » Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:04 pm

Ah, Yes, The Great Blizzard of 1983.....

But anyhow, its looking nice for NYC North.... Or I am mistaken?
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