Forecast maps on track for new look

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Zadok
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Forecast maps on track for new look

#1 Postby Zadok » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:29 am

Forecast maps on track for new look

By Ken Kaye
Staff Writer
Posted November 27 2004

Instead of the skinny black line, showing a hurricane's forecast track, forecasters have drafted a couple of alternative graphics to depict where the storms might go -- and they want your opinion.

Three options are to be posted on the National Hurricane Center's Web site -- http://www.nhc.noaa.gov -- possibly by Wednesday or within the next few weeks, and the public will be invited to comment.


One option shows only the cone of uncertainty and dots, marking a storm's forecast position over a five-day period. Another: Circles within the cone of uncertainty, illustrating potential strike zones for given time periods.

The third option: keep the line as is.

The hurricane center's graphics are seen by millions of residents either on its Web site, on television or in newspapers.

With hurricane season ending Tuesday, officials are considering a change because too many people trusted the black line when Hurricane Charley initially aimed toward Tampa but made an unexpected turn into Punta Gorda in August.

Many residents focused on the line's landfall position and were caught off guard, said Scott Kiser, tropical cyclone manager at the National Weather Service headquarters in Silver Spring, Md.

Forecasters would prefer residents pay close attention to the cone of uncertainty, which shows a much broader potential strike area.

"I don't want to emphasize the landfall point two or three days in advance," Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, said Friday. "If you know what the black line means and how to use it, there's no problem. But some people don't know how to use it."

The two new options have problems as well, officials said. The circles might be confusing because, particularly with a slow-moving system, they would intersect.

Showing just dots also might be baffling, particularly with a storm that loops, as did Hurricane Jeanne before it bashed Florida in September.

"If a storm stalls or loops it can almost look like [a] dartboard," Mayfield said.

The National Weather Service, which oversees the hurricane center, plans to select one of the three options by the June 1 start of hurricane season. It also is seeking input from emergency managers, TV meteorologists and the media.

Mayfield said he doesn't have a preference but noted that whatever alternative is selected will be a "short-term solution."

The reason: All three options are based on a storm's geometric center, or a very small point, while hurricanes are huge systems and can cause destruction for hundreds of miles on either side of a track.

In the next two years, the weather service hopes to generate graphics that would show probabilities for a hurricane's track, as well as its intensity and its size, Mayfield said.

"There would be no reason to have a center line at all," he said.

Image

source
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#2 Postby Hyperstorm » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:29 am

Great news story! I didn't know about it. Thanks for posting it.

Now, I think the BEST option would be to leave as is, however, I sure know that MANY people do NOT understand the cone with the dots on the line. On the other hand, the one without the lines and just the dots would make things more confusing, IMHO, in the event of a looping cyclone that doesn't know where it's going, for example.

With that in mind, the only option who is left standing is the one with the circles inside the cone. It definitely isn't a bad idea plus it would make the "It's coming right for us" comments disappear.....hopefully.
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#3 Postby Hyperstorm » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:44 am

Here is a closer look at the three track options:

Image
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#4 Postby wxman57 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:10 am

I can't find anything on the possible new graphics on the NHC page. Could you be more specific as to where to look?
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#5 Postby vbhoutex » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:29 am

Actually I don't think any of them are a good solution. Maybe a cone within a cone with the inner cone being an area of "more possible or more probable" points of landfall. I do like the idea they expressed of going towards something that indicates the possiblilities of the intensities and the destruction away from just the landfall point.
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#6 Postby Ixolib » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:01 pm

Of the possibilities offered, I think I like the circles. As the storm gets closer to a landfall, the circle becomes smaller, allowing those within the circle to possibly make a better choice than if they were just looking at a line. Of course, like it's been said, looping storms and slow-moving ones might cause things to get a little jumbled. I just believe the line has to go - somehow, someway...
Last edited by Ixolib on Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#7 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:29 pm

Ixolib wrote:Of the possibilities offered, I think I like the circles. As the storm gets closer to a landfall, the circle becomes smaller, allowing those within the circle to possibly make a better choice than if they were just looking at a line. Of course, like it's been said, looping storms and slow-moving ones might cause things to get a little jumbled. I just believe the line has to go - somehow, someway...

Image


Yeah...That would help keep any trouble away from the NWS because they really dont know where it will hit exactly. Just give it a range of where possible hits could come.

Yes it might cause it to get jumbled up so how about we just use those circles on tracks that get near land. And the rest just use the old format?
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#8 Postby Derek Ortt » Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:39 pm

how about educating the people to use the line properly, or as I have advocated on many occasions, <b>ONLY RELEASE THE PUBLIC ADVISORIES!</b> and keep the technical discussions for the mets, who can comprehend them. The public advisories contain sufficient informatin so that a person can make the necessary decisions regarding life and property based upon them alone. Combined with emergency managment officials' information, the people are fully informed and the discussions are not even needed for the general public (yes, weather enthusiasts will become mad, but when I have thought of the issue, the weather enthusiast makes up only a fraction of a percent of the population and I have also found that the general public is quite confused regarding the discussions; therefore, <b>I ENCOURAGE WEATHER ENTHUSIASTS TO THINK AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, NOT AS AN ENTHUSIAST REGARDING THIS MATTER</b>)
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#9 Postby vbhoutex » Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:32 pm

This is where you and I agree to disagree Derek.

I am a "weather enthusiast" as you say and a well educated one at that, as are many others on this site. I do understand what you are saying but I must disagree with you. You are talking about "educating" the public, yet taking some of the tools I and others on this site use to educate the members of this site and the public that may also use it. That doesn't make sense to me. Am I supposed to have fewer tools available to me just because others have not become as educated about the weather as I have? That seems to be what you are advocating. I agree we need to better educate the "public", but taking away the things that help do that and relegating that role only to the "scientists" and the "people who know what they are talking about or looking at" is imho ludicrous.
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#10 Postby Derek Ortt » Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:50 pm

I can see that viewpoint; however, IMO, providing too much information without the proper training is also not the best way to go about things.

What we should have on the discussions maybe is a statement at the top to refer to the public advisories and that the discussions can tend to speculate about possibilities.

What I have found in the public advisories is that there is no focus on the forecast track until just a couple of hours before landfall; instead, the focus is on the entire hurricane warning area. IMO, had only the public advisories been available for Charley, some of the problems on the WC would have been avoided (The EC problems, well, thats a whole other story that needs to be dealt with), as the public would have realized that they were more or less in the center of the warning area; thus, at a significant risk of a landfall of a major hurricane
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#11 Postby mikey mike » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:02 pm

The hardest thing to get people to realize is a hurricane is not a POINT on a map.So I would say the circles would be the thing to go with.
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#12 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:03 pm

mikey mike wrote:The hardest thing to get people to realize is a hurricane is not a POINT on a map.So I would say the circles would be the thing to go with.


Yes that is what I believe also. Because the tropical storm force winds usually goes out for 100 miles or more. They are very large systems you know. :lol:
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#13 Postby MGC » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:13 pm

I think the interlocking circles is best. With my discussions on Ivan's track with my peer group at work, many were looking only at the solid line and disregarding the cone.

Sorry Derek, but I still disagree with you on the forecast discussion being made public. I my opinion, not enough information is made public by the government. True, many people will read the discussion and not make heads or tails of it. But, to withhold this critical information just because of the assumtion of ignorance is just not right.......MGC
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#14 Postby Wnghs2007 » Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:34 pm

MGC wrote:I think the interlocking circles is best. With my discussions on Ivan's track with my peer group at work, many were looking only at the solid line and disregarding the cone.

Sorry Derek, but I still disagree with you on the forecast discussion being made public. I my opinion, not enough information is made public by the government. True, many people will read the discussion and not make heads or tails of it. But, to withhold this critical information just because of the assumtion of ignorance is just not right.......MGC


I agree. :D
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#15 Postby fci » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:49 pm

"I can see that viewpoint; however, IMO, providing too much information without the proper training is also not the best way to go about things."

Derek:
I have been a follower of yours and what you say, as your forecasts, especially for the SE FLorida storms; were amazing. I counted on you during those difficult times to AUGMENT and INTERPRET the information that I was reading in the Discussions and on this board.
To take us back to the time when we only had the "official" forecat to rely on is a HUGE step backwards!
When I was growing up in SE Fla, we waited for Weaver the Weatherman to tell us what was happening and we never really had a clue besides what "they"wanted us to know.
The Forecast Discussion availability along with the models opened up the door to us amatuers to start to understand the whys and hows with the forecast.
With all due respect (and I have a LOT for you); to take this away from us since we are not "properly trained" is an awful move and very shortsighted.
Before you started taking the courses you took (and are taking) would you REALLY have wanted this???
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#16 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:55 pm

I tihnk the system they use now is the best...You have to understand that it can change in always be ready for it...
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#17 Postby Hyperstorm » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:54 am

I can assure you that the percentage of people who have access and read the discussions is extremely minuscule...Maybe even less than 5%. The vast majority of the people get their hurricane news from television, radio, newspapers and you don't see any of these sources transcripting the discussions word for word. If anything, the ones responsible for the confusion are usually the meteorologists themselves.

By just eliminating the discussions, you will not eliminate the problem. The answer you said it...EDUCATION.
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#18 Postby mikey mike » Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:46 am

I agree with Hyperstorm.The TV mets are the worlds worst at creating confusion
If you watch multible channels you get multible
interpretations of the information.Too many of these TV mets want to make their own forecast.There is one in New Orleans that is bad at this.He always goes against whatever the NHC puts out and offers his own opinion.99% of the time he is wrong.So therein lies one problem with the confusion factor.If the TV mets would just give out the NHC info it would cut down on some of the confusion.IMO
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#19 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:55 pm

looking back upon my pre college days when I first started to read NHC discussions, my only thought is about how little I knew and how I didnt understand those discussions at all. At the time I had thought that I had known what they were saying, but I had no understanding of the atmospheric dynamics behind the discussions. This did cause me some confusion at the time, trying to interpret what it was that they were saying and why they were saying it
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#20 Postby Hurricanehink » Sun Nov 28, 2004 2:02 pm

Noting should be changed, IMO. Charley hit in the area of the hurricane warning. Sure, it was supposed to go further north, but it doesn't change that the people of Punta Gorda should have been prepared. Hurricane forecasting is a still inexact science, and the public should realize that hurricanes have large wind fields.
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