Abortion/Murder/Choice/Fetus/Human ???

[j]

What a glorious oppurtunity the Laci Peterson case has presented for NOW, and Planned Parenthood to once again show their butts. While 99% of the Nation is sickened from the hideous Murder of both of these human beings, these two groups are squabbling (as usual) as to whether their should be a double murder in this case. Just plain sickening is all I can say.

Morris County NOW President says:

"There's something about this that bothers me a little bit," Stark said. "Was it born, or was it unborn? If it was unborn, then I can't see charging (Peterson) with a double-murder."

Lets see...the baby is 8 months old, could EASILY live outside of the womb. This baby sleeps, eats, rolls over, hiccups, kicks, stretches. Oh yeah.....and it's HEART BEATS. I wonder what Ms. Stark would say if Lacy Peterson was HER daughter?? I've heard arguments over the weekend from other "Choice" advocates that because the baby still had the Ambilcal Chord attached, that somehow THIS defines that baby as a Fetus and not a human being. Hmmmmm....the last time I looked, the baby is BORN with the chord attached. Another stupid argument by these Abortion Rights activists.


California...the leader in this Country for immoral thought and behavior, by State Law, defines a Fetus as a human being 8 weeks after conception, at which time, if the Mother is murdered, then the murderer "can" be charged with the murder of the fetus/human being. Incredible as this may seem, the same Courts will allow the Mother to Kill/Abort that same "human being", well after 8 weeks, and then turn around and say that it is a "Fetus" = No Murder. Even though, there is willful attempt to end this babies life. Not even a debate about motive. No discussion about evidence, witnesses, trials. The rules are changed, and the baby is defined now as a fetus, and not a Human Being.

What gives?????

[Stephanie]

Technically, the baby was not "born". Plus when he became detached from the womb, he unfortunately was already dead. Unless we're going to start to having "conception days" instead of birthdays, the baby was still a fetus in my opinion.

[j]

jmo...but I consider that baby of hers to be 8 months old when it was murdered.

[stormraiser]

(Hoping not to open a can of worms that may already be opened........)

Stephanie, is an unborn child any less human than a "born" child? Is a fetus any less human than you or I? Yes, this unborn child may not have experienced life as we know it, but does that make it ok to take his life? I don't know that you are saying that, but your quote about him still being a fetus makes me think you have been tainted by the whole NOW/Planned Parenthood thinking.

Being the father of 4 wonderful children, I don't celebrate "conception days" like you quipped, but let me tell you, once I know there is a life growing inside of my wife, I couldn't be happier. I tell everyone I know. I love being a father. I love my children, I love the fact that I chose them over any selfish motive that may have come to me. I didn't get married to live for myself. I always wanted children. I wanted to put good things into them, to love others, to help people in need. .... (sorry, got carried away.)

Anyway, fetus or baby, is it really a difference, as far as choosing to take a life goes? I don't condemn anyone who thinks otherwise. That's not my job. That will come in due time.

Technically, the baby was not "born". Plus when he became detached from the womb, he unfortunately was already dead. Unless we're going to start to having "conception days" instead of birthdays, the baby was still a fetus in my opinion.

[j]

I'll stick up for Steph here and say that she could not have possibly meant that it was ok to take that babies life because it was "unborn". She can correct me if I'm wrong but I think she was purely debating the definition of fetus vs viable human being. Surely she doesn't believe that Laci's murderer is ONLY responsible for one death.

edit....this says it all...thank you.

"Anyway, fetus or baby, is it really a difference, as far as choosing to take a life goes?"

Key word there = "choosing"

[stormraiser]

thanks, J. if that is the case, I will delete my post.

I'll stick up for Steph here and say that she could not have possibly meant that it was ok to take that babies life because it was "unborn". She can correct me if I'm wrong but I think she was purely debating the definition of fetus vs viable human being. Surely she doesn't believe that Laci's murderer is ONLY responsible for one death.

[Stephanie]

Thanks j for that one...

Actually, j and I have been around this topic a couple of times. I do believe in a woman's right to choose. I've been there done that myself unfortunately. I was debating the definition between a fetus and a baby. I do definately believe that Scott Peterson caused both Laci's and the fetus's death. The fetus could not survive without the mother being alive.

[j]

...anytime I talk to a pregnant woman and ask questions about her "fetus"...I always refer to it as a baby. Not trying to be a wise *** here, just making a point. I mean can you imagine if you walked up to an expectant mother and said..."when is the due date for that fetus"?

[stormraiser]

Stephanie, I think it is a woman's right, also, to choose right from wrong. I don't know if the government should be legislating morality. That is what we have an conscience for -- to choose right from wrong. I don't mean to condemn any woman who was put in a position to take the life of her baby (fetus). It saddens me that someone would have to be put in that position. But I think that society in general condones this, so it has become "normal" to do it.

Thanks j for that one...

Actually, j and I have been around this topic a couple of times. I do believe in a woman's right to choose. I've been there done that myself unfortunately. I was debating the definition between a fetus and a baby. I do definately believe that Scott Peterson caused both Laci's and the fetus's death. The fetus could not survive without the mother being alive.

[Lindaloo]

Steph...do a little research on how long that baby can live in the womb before actually dying. When the baby was found, investigators said the baby was "full term" a baby is not classified as "full term" at 8 months. That is why they are called trimesters. Once past a certain trimester it is then deemed a baby and not a fetus.

California laws allow them to file Capital Murder charges for an unborn child if the Mother is murdered past a certain trimester. NOW better wise up and stay out of this one or suffer their own demise.

[j]

I hope they keep it up Linda...when your on the wrong side of righteousness, every time you open your mouth you put another nail in the coffin.

[Stephanie]

Steph...do a little research on how long that baby can live in the womb before actually dying. When the baby was found, investigators said the baby was "full term" a baby is not classified as "full term" at 8 months. That is why they are called trimesters. Once past a certain trimester it is then deemed a baby and not a fetus.

California laws allow them to file Capital Murder charges for an unborn child if the Mother is murdered past a certain trimester. NOW better wise up and stay out of this one or suffer their own demise.

That was my definition - realizing that the fetus or baby was 8 months old at the time, I did know that it was in its third trimester. If the baby was due in February, and Laci disappeared on Christmas Eve and probably was killed that day too, I don't think (in my opinion) that a fetus or near full term baby would've been able to survive on Laci very long. Either way, Scott is responsible for both deaths.

[Stephanie]

I hope they keep it up Linda...when your on the wrong side of righteousness, every time you open your mouth you put another nail in the coffin.

Here we go again - righteousness. I'm sure most women here that can go to work, vote, serve in the military feel pretty damn good about at least what NOW has done for them. I guess it would've been more "right" for a woman to be barefoot and pregnant and depend upon hubby for support.

[JQ Public]

one murder. they are one until the baby is born. it could live on its own, but it didn't so it is still a part of the mother. 1 murder convinction is enough. given that she was murdered is bad enough...there is no doubt the 1 murder conviction will be sufficient enogh to give him death or at least life.

[WidreMann]

The only non-arbitrary line that we can draw is certainly viability. Before that, there is no clear line on one side of which we can say "the fetus is a human" and on the other side of which we can say "the fetus is a mass of tissue".

In this case, it's a tough call, especially since the fetus was still technically part of the mother. And even though it is viable, it wasn't a separate being at the time. But, I would say it should count being 8 months old.

[j]

well then...what about 7.5 months??????

[Stephanie]

I don't know if the fetus/baby would be considered viable at that time. That's a preemie and it would need all kinds of life support to help it along.

[mf_dolphin]

I guess the point in this specific case is that California does have a Fetal Death provision. According to that, Scott has been charged with multiple murder counts and the door is open for the death penalty. I don't know if these types of laws have been argued in front of the U.S. Supreme Court yet. No matter what your personal opinion on the moral side of the arguement, it does seem to establish a legal basis for determining life. It is curious that the abortion laws are not consistent as someone else pointed out earlier.

[Lindaloo]

one murder. they are one until the baby is born. it could live on its own, but it didn't so it is still a part of the mother. 1 murder convinction is enough. given that she was murdered is bad enough...there is no doubt the 1 murder conviction will be sufficient enogh to give him death or at least life.

Wrong answer... he has now been charged with double murder.

Steph... I went to the law library here at work and found all info what I posted under California law. If they find that the baby suffered death BEFORE Laci then they will classify that as murder. Seems that Dr. Baden and Dr. Wecht (forensics) is on top of this and has found that the baby died first. After the arraignment we will certainly be able to know circumstances surrounding both deaths.

[j]

I beg to differ Stephanie.....but my point being when you ask a Pro Choicer when do they think a baby is viable, if they tip toe at all, then they know they are wrong. Either you don't think the baby has a right to live until it is apart from its mother, or you think it has a right to live from DAY1!!! You can't have it both ways.

Premies born at 6 months, especially twins, will indeed need life support and extra care. Your not opposed to that are you? I just don't understand the attitude that a baby is nothing but a bucket full of tissue mass until it is out of the womb and taking its first breaths?