Hey Poppysky....
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- azskyman
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Hey Poppysky....
I have a hard time keeping up on all the news and happenings...and occasionally miss something I shouldn't. Also, being considered by some as the "Sage Statesman of S2k," thought I'd start a thread here in the community forum where you'll know where to reach me...and also where you can post community or private messages and send them my way.
Any subject, any topic, any time. For encouragement, ideas, or just a listenin' ear.
I'll check frequently (as I obviously don't check many other posts like I used to), and do my best to perform my S2k "Community Service."
Also...on the weather side of things, I have a lifetime of connections and ideas and people I know who might be a resource to lean on. And I've watched the sky faithfully for more than 50 years!
Feel free to step on in...
Steve (aka azskyman)
Scottsdale, Arizona
Any subject, any topic, any time. For encouragement, ideas, or just a listenin' ear.
I'll check frequently (as I obviously don't check many other posts like I used to), and do my best to perform my S2k "Community Service."
Also...on the weather side of things, I have a lifetime of connections and ideas and people I know who might be a resource to lean on. And I've watched the sky faithfully for more than 50 years!
Feel free to step on in...
Steve (aka azskyman)
Scottsdale, Arizona
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- azskyman
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Might I add....I am but one humble member among many here...I don't pretend to be anything else....but it seems I've been tagged with the responsibility now and then to help when I can, steer when the road is curvy, or help others laugh when humor is hard to find.
If community posts seem awkward, PM's are fine. I respect privacy when you wish.
Steve
If community posts seem awkward, PM's are fine. I respect privacy when you wish.
Steve
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Alright, Poppysky...I'm not holding you to anything here
[or pretending this is "Write Ann Landers..." ] if you're not
familiar, our Tennesseean newspaper has the Ann Landers
column for problems. My office manager confronted me,
today, on how she should ask our boss (the doc) for a
raise. Now, it seems that when he hired her, he told her
that he would "consider" a raise in three months from her
start of work. It's been over three months, and, he hasn't
mentioned it. She's been counting the days. I told her that
she should remind him that he would "consider" it,
and, he should look at her work, and, decide if she is
deserving of the raise. If he has reservations, she should
have several things handy that she could present to him
as, "well, you asked me to do this, and, I did it, and, now
it's taken care of..."
What do you think about this?
[or pretending this is "Write Ann Landers..." ] if you're not
familiar, our Tennesseean newspaper has the Ann Landers
column for problems. My office manager confronted me,
today, on how she should ask our boss (the doc) for a
raise. Now, it seems that when he hired her, he told her
that he would "consider" a raise in three months from her
start of work. It's been over three months, and, he hasn't
mentioned it. She's been counting the days. I told her that
she should remind him that he would "consider" it,
and, he should look at her work, and, decide if she is
deserving of the raise. If he has reservations, she should
have several things handy that she could present to him
as, "well, you asked me to do this, and, I did it, and, now
it's taken care of..."
What do you think about this?
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- azskyman
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Your advice is not too bad.
It is a common situation for "bosses" to use bait such as the "90-day-review" to help ice the hiring or give the employee a sense that a decision to work at this particular place would be a good one.
It is just as common that 90-days comes and goes and although the boss (doctors are among the worst!) seems totally pleased with the person's performance, he or she is oblivious to time and has not given that statement a thought!
My suggestion is for the employee not to approach him or her about the issue of the 90-day review, but instead consider what contributions he or she has made during that time...especially those that might have been on the "hot list" at the time they came on board.
And then...ask the boss for a few minutes to discuss the progress that has been made and for an assessment of how things have been going. An appointment is better than just a brief time out of the day.
"Could I get a few minutes with you sometime this week to discuss our progress...the needs you see, and how I might be able to help us get there?"
Most bosses will at least see that as a proactive thing to do...and might even remember that first conversation.
At the meeting (assuming there is one), the conversation needs to center on what the future needs are, how the progress is going, and what opportunities there are to help make that happen. After all, if you can make the boss look good, EVERYONE looks good!"
Then, and here's the key, if the boss goes through all the conversation and it has a positive feel to it, yet he doesn't approach the topic of money, DON'T force the issue right then. Instead...hold back on the tongue and go to work.
Instead...focus on the new tasks, the types of things that bring immediate results and are noticed right away. Sometime during the early few days while you are responding to that next set of objectives, then watch the timing and be prepared to say, "Sir (or Ma'am), I really appreciate the conversation we had last week. It is keeping me on track and focused better than ever. I hope you know how much I appreciated our conversation. Sometime soon...can we have another conversation about that 90-day review that we discussed when I first started?"
And then see where that takes you.
I am a firm believer that the best position from which to ask for a raise is AFTER you have agreed to raise the bar on what you do and your participation as a team member. Set the new pace first. Accept more responsiblity first. Show that the opportunity is more important than the pay (even if that is not the case).
Those people who make future performance contingent upon management taking the first step (for example, "I think I'm worth another $30 a week..and I'd be glad to tackle some new challenges if you can help me get there.) are doomed in my eyes.
Sucking up to the boss? Maybe. But also accepting your REAL responsibility in making things better. Honestly, a person does not deserve more money just for "time on the job." It should always be related to "contribution on the job."
Let me know how this goes for your friend.
(and as a PS....a boss shouldn't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out how important good staff members are. In your case, who knows?)
It is a common situation for "bosses" to use bait such as the "90-day-review" to help ice the hiring or give the employee a sense that a decision to work at this particular place would be a good one.
It is just as common that 90-days comes and goes and although the boss (doctors are among the worst!) seems totally pleased with the person's performance, he or she is oblivious to time and has not given that statement a thought!
My suggestion is for the employee not to approach him or her about the issue of the 90-day review, but instead consider what contributions he or she has made during that time...especially those that might have been on the "hot list" at the time they came on board.
And then...ask the boss for a few minutes to discuss the progress that has been made and for an assessment of how things have been going. An appointment is better than just a brief time out of the day.
"Could I get a few minutes with you sometime this week to discuss our progress...the needs you see, and how I might be able to help us get there?"
Most bosses will at least see that as a proactive thing to do...and might even remember that first conversation.
At the meeting (assuming there is one), the conversation needs to center on what the future needs are, how the progress is going, and what opportunities there are to help make that happen. After all, if you can make the boss look good, EVERYONE looks good!"
Then, and here's the key, if the boss goes through all the conversation and it has a positive feel to it, yet he doesn't approach the topic of money, DON'T force the issue right then. Instead...hold back on the tongue and go to work.
Instead...focus on the new tasks, the types of things that bring immediate results and are noticed right away. Sometime during the early few days while you are responding to that next set of objectives, then watch the timing and be prepared to say, "Sir (or Ma'am), I really appreciate the conversation we had last week. It is keeping me on track and focused better than ever. I hope you know how much I appreciated our conversation. Sometime soon...can we have another conversation about that 90-day review that we discussed when I first started?"
And then see where that takes you.
I am a firm believer that the best position from which to ask for a raise is AFTER you have agreed to raise the bar on what you do and your participation as a team member. Set the new pace first. Accept more responsiblity first. Show that the opportunity is more important than the pay (even if that is not the case).
Those people who make future performance contingent upon management taking the first step (for example, "I think I'm worth another $30 a week..and I'd be glad to tackle some new challenges if you can help me get there.) are doomed in my eyes.
Sucking up to the boss? Maybe. But also accepting your REAL responsibility in making things better. Honestly, a person does not deserve more money just for "time on the job." It should always be related to "contribution on the job."
Let me know how this goes for your friend.
(and as a PS....a boss shouldn't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out how important good staff members are. In your case, who knows?)
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- streetsoldier
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Steve,
As you may already know, I'm trying to re-obtain my WW II reenactor collection of German insignia/awards. Debi stated that she'd help me buy them "when we have a little extra", yet she SPENDS what little extra we have on herself (new blouse and hair clamps just today).
When I approached her on this, she reneged, saying (for Father's Day) "I'm not buying any German stuff; it makes me feel creepy to have it in the house"...and since then has kept our accounts just to the black side of empty (including "maxing out" my MasterCard, and refusing to pay it down)...effectively preventing me from continuance of my quest.
When I asked her about this, she threw the checkbook at me and told ME to pay all the bills (RIGHT...she KNOWS she's better at spreadsheets than I ever could be).
Should I breach the subject again, or forget about it entirely?
As you may already know, I'm trying to re-obtain my WW II reenactor collection of German insignia/awards. Debi stated that she'd help me buy them "when we have a little extra", yet she SPENDS what little extra we have on herself (new blouse and hair clamps just today).
When I approached her on this, she reneged, saying (for Father's Day) "I'm not buying any German stuff; it makes me feel creepy to have it in the house"...and since then has kept our accounts just to the black side of empty (including "maxing out" my MasterCard, and refusing to pay it down)...effectively preventing me from continuance of my quest.
When I asked her about this, she threw the checkbook at me and told ME to pay all the bills (RIGHT...she KNOWS she's better at spreadsheets than I ever could be).
Should I breach the subject again, or forget about it entirely?
Last edited by streetsoldier on Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks, Steve! I appreciate your wisdom, and, with the
receptionist turning in her 1 -wk. notice, as of
this past Thursday, my Office Manager is going
to have to learn other responsibilities,
as of now - her's AND the receptionist's jobs!
Good greif - just when my blood pressure was finally
leveling off, here we go, again!
Now, to Bill!
receptionist turning in her 1 -wk. notice, as of
this past Thursday, my Office Manager is going
to have to learn other responsibilities,
as of now - her's AND the receptionist's jobs!
Good greif - just when my blood pressure was finally
leveling off, here we go, again!

Now, to Bill!
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- azskyman
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Breeze....before moving on to Bill, just keep me posted on those happenings in the office. Sometimes the need for a position never justifies until the right person has to wear several different hats. It's still kind of a positive situation in that someone who can effectively take some heat off the OM and juggle a little more of the workload can also make their own case for a future promotion or pay increase. I say all this of course not knowing the type of personalities in the picture...and that's a very important missing ingredient in the puzzle.
As for you Bill...you've been here before with that dismissive sort of reaction to your needs. It was medication at one point in the past, I think.
Every working relationship has to include some understanding of the other partner's needs and priorities. To gain that understanding requires conversation, not tossed checkbooks. That's the easy way out. Rather than acknowledge your own wishes...seems Debbie prefers to exercise her "rightful (in her eyes)" control as the primary bread winner. Which leaves you with little room to negotiate for anything outside of her definition of "necessities."
This is a tough one for Colonel Sage here...as "compromise, consensus, and consideration" are the three "c's" I would normally suggest in such a situation. However, the fourth "c," communication, has to be open and honest for any of the other three to get through due process.
In reality, the best shot I can see is in helping your partner find the money, the resources, and even the time and effort to obtain something on her own "wish list" first. Not just for the purpose of positioning yourself better when it is time to pursue yours, but more importantly as a genuine gesture that you recognize that, good or bad, you are both in the relationship together. And from that vantage point, put some sincere effort into helping her achieve something, or buy something, that has been just out of reach for a while.
The opportunity for you to then pursue something on your own behalf...with something other than a reluctance from the other side, seems to improve.
The side effect...and this is the greatest gain of all...is that through that process some communication...some heartfelt communication....might just happen along the way.
Rebuttal time.
As for you Bill...you've been here before with that dismissive sort of reaction to your needs. It was medication at one point in the past, I think.
Every working relationship has to include some understanding of the other partner's needs and priorities. To gain that understanding requires conversation, not tossed checkbooks. That's the easy way out. Rather than acknowledge your own wishes...seems Debbie prefers to exercise her "rightful (in her eyes)" control as the primary bread winner. Which leaves you with little room to negotiate for anything outside of her definition of "necessities."
This is a tough one for Colonel Sage here...as "compromise, consensus, and consideration" are the three "c's" I would normally suggest in such a situation. However, the fourth "c," communication, has to be open and honest for any of the other three to get through due process.
In reality, the best shot I can see is in helping your partner find the money, the resources, and even the time and effort to obtain something on her own "wish list" first. Not just for the purpose of positioning yourself better when it is time to pursue yours, but more importantly as a genuine gesture that you recognize that, good or bad, you are both in the relationship together. And from that vantage point, put some sincere effort into helping her achieve something, or buy something, that has been just out of reach for a while.
The opportunity for you to then pursue something on your own behalf...with something other than a reluctance from the other side, seems to improve.
The side effect...and this is the greatest gain of all...is that through that process some communication...some heartfelt communication....might just happen along the way.
Rebuttal time.
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- streetsoldier
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Well, Steve...
When something like Mother's Day or her birthday comes along, I try to present her with things SHE LIKES; I don't care for them, but...SHE likes them (crystal figurines, angel/elephant figures, contemporary Christian CDs)....and she receives them.
All I want from Debi is "reciprocation-in-kind"....and she is unwilling to concede 01.mm.
She did buy me clothes that (a) I didn't want and (b) I wouldn't wear to a cat fight; they are hanging up, unused, in my closet and will remain there...unused. For what she paid out for them, I could have had my Ritterkreuz den Eisernes Kreuz mit Eichenlaub, 1939., but she can't see that.
HER imperative, no one else's, will prevail. Period.
When something like Mother's Day or her birthday comes along, I try to present her with things SHE LIKES; I don't care for them, but...SHE likes them (crystal figurines, angel/elephant figures, contemporary Christian CDs)....and she receives them.
All I want from Debi is "reciprocation-in-kind"....and she is unwilling to concede 01.mm.
She did buy me clothes that (a) I didn't want and (b) I wouldn't wear to a cat fight; they are hanging up, unused, in my closet and will remain there...unused. For what she paid out for them, I could have had my Ritterkreuz den Eisernes Kreuz mit Eichenlaub, 1939., but she can't see that.
HER imperative, no one else's, will prevail. Period.

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- azskyman
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Bill...as you already know, there should be few if any imperatives in a working relationship. Partnerships of all kinds require flexibility, patience, and a give-and-take attitude.
Seems to me dear friend that your question on whether to pursue issues of personal needs with Debi is jumping right out of the gate with a hard and rigid line in the sand. Ouch!
And the topic is money besides.
Realistically, wherever you can find common ground (obviously not involving finances), you need to find it and build a more trusting and mutually beneficial relationship around that "hallowed" space.
In the meantime...pass on the debate about rebuilding your collection. How enjoyable would it be anyway if it involves anger, frustration, and attitude!
Seems to me dear friend that your question on whether to pursue issues of personal needs with Debi is jumping right out of the gate with a hard and rigid line in the sand. Ouch!
And the topic is money besides.
Realistically, wherever you can find common ground (obviously not involving finances), you need to find it and build a more trusting and mutually beneficial relationship around that "hallowed" space.
In the meantime...pass on the debate about rebuilding your collection. How enjoyable would it be anyway if it involves anger, frustration, and attitude!
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- streetsoldier
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It already has...Coppertop broached the subject during our nightly "devotional", and Debi burst into tears, claiming that she was afraid I'd "clean out the accounts" or make unknown (to her) withdrawals to finance this.
I hadn't done this in past days, and I wouldn't now; Debi still is feeling the hand of her now-dead ex-husband, who DID do these things (blowing a house payment on an engine block, or round-after-round at the bar). After reminding her that "I'm not (name unwritten)", she went to bed w/o any further comment.
Things remain static...almost. Coppertop (!) offered to assist me in obtaining the items. Unlike Debi, he understands how important they are to me. Steve, there are some matters that are not negotiable...and I've waited in silence for 13 years before finally permitting myself to take back what was lost (i.e. sold at a loss, per her demands in 1992).
I find it curious that, whenever we are short, I have to give up whatever I have to feed this family, yet SHE keeps everything she has. Enough is enough.
This is what Shelley told me I should do (before she quit, three years ago): it goes to "self-nurturing", and she foresaw NO problem, spiritual or otherwise, with my German collection. Same with my knives/guns...Shelly knew me as no one else does, and I'm thankful for her friendship and counseling.
I hadn't done this in past days, and I wouldn't now; Debi still is feeling the hand of her now-dead ex-husband, who DID do these things (blowing a house payment on an engine block, or round-after-round at the bar). After reminding her that "I'm not (name unwritten)", she went to bed w/o any further comment.
Things remain static...almost. Coppertop (!) offered to assist me in obtaining the items. Unlike Debi, he understands how important they are to me. Steve, there are some matters that are not negotiable...and I've waited in silence for 13 years before finally permitting myself to take back what was lost (i.e. sold at a loss, per her demands in 1992).
I find it curious that, whenever we are short, I have to give up whatever I have to feed this family, yet SHE keeps everything she has. Enough is enough.
This is what Shelley told me I should do (before she quit, three years ago): it goes to "self-nurturing", and she foresaw NO problem, spiritual or otherwise, with my German collection. Same with my knives/guns...Shelly knew me as no one else does, and I'm thankful for her friendship and counseling.
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- azskyman
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How giving of Kevin to reach out on your behalf, on hers, and even his. He knows the importance of the collection to you...and I can offer little more than to find ways to keep building on your assurances...allaying her fears, in hopes that she might understand.
How wonderful that Shelley came into your life. I remember how you almost felt betrayed by her professional decision to move on and away.
But if you still write to her, talk with her, or interact with her. Or if Kevin might do that. Perhaps Shelley could intervene and help you strengthen the common ground you are so much in need of.
Healing of the heart would be the wonderful sidebar to all this if something like that could happen.
Do not give up faith or hope or the quest for your most modest of dreams.
By the way, sir, if you would prefer this be by IM or email...be happy to pull off the main road and follow a path less traveled.
How wonderful that Shelley came into your life. I remember how you almost felt betrayed by her professional decision to move on and away.
But if you still write to her, talk with her, or interact with her. Or if Kevin might do that. Perhaps Shelley could intervene and help you strengthen the common ground you are so much in need of.
Healing of the heart would be the wonderful sidebar to all this if something like that could happen.
Do not give up faith or hope or the quest for your most modest of dreams.
By the way, sir, if you would prefer this be by IM or email...be happy to pull off the main road and follow a path less traveled.
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- streetsoldier
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Shelley has been quite successful in covering her tracks. I DO know that (a) she's still in the area as of April at least, and (b) she's no longer working in the social work/counseling field (ah, the wonders of Google!).
It is obvious that she doesn't want contact with us...perhaps it's for the better (for her) that she isn't. As for Coppertop and me...we've been struggling along with "clinically detached" second-stringers; nowhere near Shelley's level of expertise or insight, and that's the best we can get.
Next contestant, come on down!
It is obvious that she doesn't want contact with us...perhaps it's for the better (for her) that she isn't. As for Coppertop and me...we've been struggling along with "clinically detached" second-stringers; nowhere near Shelley's level of expertise or insight, and that's the best we can get.
Next contestant, come on down!
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