200 MPH Hurricane

[mahicks]

Yup

[Lowpressure]

What do you really think Isabel was before recon finally got to her?

[dhweather]

One thing I don't get, and I'm not picking one anyone - the overall
willingness for people to accept the measurements of the 1935 storm.
One story I've read on the storm pointed out that the pressure was measured from a guy that had a pocket instrument.

Can we really put that much faith in a 1935 pocket barometer?

The storm was major and did catastrophic damage, but it's in the
grey area for historical reference.

[mahicks]

I've always wondered the same thing. How did they know?

And if the 1935 pocket barometer is true, your absolutely right.

In my mind, I imagine a 1935 barometer to look something like the little decorative wooden "weather stations" we sell at Wal-Mart around Christmas time!

[Normandy]

I've always wondered the same thing. How did they know?

And if the 1935 pocket barometer is true, your absolutely right.

In my mind, I imagine a 1935 barometer to look something like the little decorative wooden "weather stations" we sell at Wal-Mart around Christmas time!

Well if that hurricane holds the record as the lowest pressure measured in the US, im sure the barometer went through tests and what not. It would not be an offical record if the barometer was faulty.

As for Isabel, i dont think it ever had winds over 170 mph. It was annular and the winds matched its pressure.

[cccmachine]

With the small tightly wound circulation that M has,and the near perfect
environment ahead of her.Does she have a chance to reach the 200 mph
plateau?

[Normandy]

With the small tightly wound circulation that M has,and the near perfect
environment ahead of her.Does she have a chance to reach the 200 mph
plateau?

No, 200 mph storms are rare...like once every 100 years or so (imo).

[timNms]

I dont think Camille had 200 mph winds, since most claim she was large (with a 909 pressure)...even if she was small she still doesnt have the pressure to have 200 mph winds imo. Also the north gulf does tend to weaken storms.... I tink she had winds of about 175 mph.

The only 200 mph storm I think was 1935 keys hurricane.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have no doubt that Camille had at LEAST 190 mph sustained winds at landfall. I wouldn't be scared to say she had 200 mph sustained winds. Just look at the damage she caused, not only to the coastal areas, but well inland. I live about 90 miles north of Gulfport and winds here were 100 mph sustained. In Columbia, 20 miles SW of me, winds were sustained at 120 mph.

Trees around our area were fallen...not just a few trees, but numerous trees either uprooted or snapped. The timber industry in this area was devistated.

The 1935 cane was horrific. However, those people had little to no warning prior to landfall. At least with Camille, there was a window of opportunity to evacuate. I can remember the day before she made landfall, Highway 49 traffic was bumper to bumper in the northbound lanes. Imagine what would have happened had there been no warning. I'm sure there would have been many more deaths. I imagine there would have been reports similar to those from the Keys of people being sandblasted to death. Thankfully, this didn't happen because people were warned to get out.

Here's a link you might find interesting:
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/homep ... ables.html

[flyingphish]

Great points about wind speed measurement. There will be breakdowns in all severe instances. In my life to date..I have never seen anything like the aftermath of hurricane Andrew. Yes a small swath of devastation but you are talking a lawnmower like a twister of F4. Having recently been close to Charley, another very powerful but smallish storm. Andrew reigns King, but Charley was no sissy. I would say Andrews winds would have have to come the closest to this 200 threshold,maybe 175 based on what I observed at ground zero. I would give Charley a good 150 based on ground zero as well. Thank god these storms were small in overall scope. I have no problem accepting a documented 200 mph Atlantic. Especially in points south of 30N latitude.

[Normandy]

I dont think Camille had 200 mph winds, since most claim she was large (with a 909 pressure)...even if she was small she still doesnt have the pressure to have 200 mph winds imo. Also the north gulf does tend to weaken storms.... I tink she had winds of about 175 mph.

The only 200 mph storm I think was 1935 keys hurricane.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have no doubt that Camille had at LEAST 190 mph sustained winds at landfall. I wouldn't be scared to say she had 200 mph sustained winds. Just look at the damage she caused, not only to the coastal areas, but well inland. I live about 90 miles north of Gulfport and winds here were 100 mph sustained. In Columbia, 20 miles SW of me, winds were sustained at 120 mph.

Trees around our area were fallen...not just a few trees, but numerous trees either uprooted or snapped. The timber industry in this area was devistated.

The 1935 cane was horrific. However, those people had little to no warning prior to landfall. At least with Camille, there was a window of opportunity to evacuate. I can remember the day before she made landfall, Highway 49 traffic was bumper to bumper in the northbound lanes. Imagine what would have happened had there been no warning. I'm sure there would have been many more deaths. I imagine there would have been reports similar to those from the Keys of people being sandblasted to death. Thankfully, this didn't happen because people were warned to get out.

Here's a link you might find interesting:
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/homep ... ables.html

Well none of us can probe Camille had 200 mph winds, but we all have opinions. Based on pressure, I dont think there is any way Camille can have 200 mph winds. If it was large, its pressure wasnt low enough. If it was ultra tiny (even Andrews size) its pressure STILL isnt low enough imo.

The only way a 200 mph storm can occur is if its small and has a tight wind gradient imo. Typhoon Tip, Allen, Gilbert, none of the sub 900 storms had 200 mph winds (except the Labor Day imo). The only way Camille can have 200 mph winds is if its wind gradient is that of a Charley or a Andrew (And i dont think it was THAT small). Taking into account Camille's surge, it had to be a marginally large hurricane, so in my opinion its wind gradient wasn't extremely tight (Like a Charley or Emily for that matter).

Just my opinion though, I cant prove it.


*One other thing about the sandblasting...i find that interesting. Normally near the center of a storm wouldnt the surge inundate the coast (thus putting the sand underwater????). I find it interesting that people got sandblasted...maybe a lack of storm surge and an indicator of how small the system was...any pros care to comment?

[MGC]

Having personally witnessed Camille's damage, I can testify that the damage was consistent with that of an F4 tornado. The swath of damage was large, from extreme eastern New Orleans across most of the Mississippi Coast. Most frame building were reduced to sticks. The pictures you see on the Internet do little justice to Camille's power.....MGC

[Wthrman13]

Keep in mind, that while smaller hurricanes of the same central pressure necessarily have stronger pressure gradients, which cause a greater acceleration of wind, in larger hurricanes, the pressure gradient, while weaker, also has a longer time to act on wind spiraling in toward the center. So, in the smaller hurricanes, you have stronger pressure gradients acting over shorter distances, and in the larger hurricanes, you have weaker pressure gradients acting over larger distances.

Edit: That said, what really matters for the maximum sustained winds is where the approximate balance between the pressure gradient force and the centrifugal force sets up near the eyewall of the hurricane and the radius of maximum winds. (This sort of balance is known as cyclostrophic balance, and is at least approximately valid in the core of a mature hurricane). The equation is V^2/R = PGF, where V is the wind speed, R is the radius, and PGF is the horizontal pressure gradient force. Thus, for a given radius, R, the wind speed is directly proportional to the square root of the PGF. Alternatively, a smaller R requires a larger PGF to achieve the same wind speed.

[patsmsg]

Here's a link you might find interesting:
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/homep ... ables.html

I just want to thank everyone who posted on this topic, as I have found the posts both interesting and educational. Specifically, I appreciate Normandy sticking to his guns, because I think it lead to a lot of good information being posted by others as well.

The link above is exactly the sort of information I would like to have on the 1935 keys hurricane. (Thanks Tim.) I have no problem believing a storm can reach 200 mph myself, or even that this one did. I'd just like to see the data before blindly accepting that.

With Camille, we have 6 continuous hours of documented measurements
showing sustained winds of 190 MPH. Still, some doubt she was that stong for one reason or another.

If anyone knows of a repository of "accepted" measurements on the 1935 Keys hurricane, maybe they will share it with us.

[beachbum_al]

Very possible. I was going to say that Camille might had been over 200 mph but someone already mention it.

[dhweather]

Here's a nice review of the 1935 hurricane

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Storm_page ... ticle.html

[dhweather]

Fron that link I just posted - 26.98 before the station was destroyed.



September 2:
2 p.m.---Barometer falling; heavy sea swell and a high tide; heavy rain squalls continued. Wind from N. or NNE., force 6.
3 p.m.---Ocean swells had changed; this change noted was that large waves were rolling in from SE., somewhat against winds which were still in N. or NE.
4 p.m.---Wind still N., increasing to force 9. Barometer dropping 0.01 every five minutes. Rain continued.
5 p.m.---Wind N., hurricane force. Swells from SE.
6 p.m.---Barometer 28.04; still falling. Heavy rains. Wind still N., hurricane force and increasing. Water rising on north side of island.
6:45 p.m.---Barometer 27.90. Wind backing to NW., increasing; plenty of flying timbers and heavy timber, too---seemed it made no difference as to weight and size. A beam 6 by 8 inches, about 18 feet long, was blown from north side of camp, about 300 yards, through observer's house, wrecking it and nearly striking 3 persons. Water 3 feet deep from top of railroad grade, or about 16 feet.
7 p.m.---We were now located in main lodge building of camp; flying timbers had begun to wreck this lodge, and it was shaking on every blast. Water had now reached level of railway on north side of camp. (Ed. Note---This was water rapidly piled up from the shallow expanse of Florida Bay, under the drive of northerly hurricane winds.)
9 p.m.---No signs of storm letting up. Barometer still falling very fast.
9:20 p.m.---Barometer 27.22 inches; wind abated. We now heard other noises than the wind and knew center of storm was over us. We now head for the last and only cottage that I think can or will stand the blow due to arrive shortly. All hands, 20 in number, gather in this cottage. During this lull the sky is clear to northward, stars shining brightly and a very light breeze continued; no flat calm. About the middle of the lull, which lasted a timed 55 minutes, the sea began to lift up, it seemed, and rise very fast; this from ocean side of camp. I put my flashlight out on sea and could see walls of water which seemed many feet high. I had to race fast to regain entrance of cottage, but water caught me waist deep, although writer was only about 60 feet from doorway of cottage. Water lifted cottage from its foundations, and it floated.
10:10 p.m.---Barometer now 27.02 inches; wind beginning to blow from SSW.
10:15 p.m.--The first blast from SSW., full force. House now breaking up---wind seemed stronger than any time during the storm. I glanced at the barometer which read 26.98 inches, dropped it in water and was blown outside into sea; got hung up in broken fronds of coconut tree and hung on for dear life. I was then struck by some object and knocked unconscious.

September 3:
2:25 p.m.---I became conscious in tree and found I was lodged about 20 feet above ground. All water had disappeared from island; the cottage had been blown back on the island, from whence the sea receded and left it with all people safe.
Hurricane winds continued till 5 a.m. and during this period terrific lightning flashes were seen. After 5 a.m. strong gales continued throughout the day with very heavy rain.