YOU ARE BEING LIED TO

[mf_dolphin]

On those points you are so right as I have stated many times.
Although, they can deploy to LA but will not be able to enforce the law. As hubbie said to the current news of the deployment of Bragg soldiers to LA, this will suck if it is not martial law, They can be shot at but not shoot back.
I must have missed the part where a DIVISION was disscussed.
heck, I have never seen a whole division deployed all at once. There is always someone in the rear to take care of any other needs.

But, accordingly, they will be coming......guns loaded or not.
Was really hoping it was guns loaded.....of course, who knows what is going on behind the scenes. I think the fact that there is a lack in the amount of local/state police force, this may change up the senario.

No problem. The reason you haven't seen a whole division deployed at once is that we can't do it except by ship I spent my time at Bragg during the Iranian hostage crisis. I agree with your husband, if martial law is not declared it's going to be a circle jerk of the highest magnitude. I do dsiagree on the shoot back part. The Rules of Engagement should allow for return fire for self-defense.

[Brent]

the federal government should have steped in 24 hrs PRIOR to the hurricane making landfall. the enormity of the devestation shouldn't really have surprised anybody. what we are seeing is a complete breakdown on the part of the US response effort. or lack there of.

this is shaming as a US citizen.

The President was pledging to help on Sunday... a full 24 hours before landfall.

I'm really not getting involved with this one though...

[MBismyPlayground]

Yea, if you feel your life is threatened ect......such a gray area and such a fine line to walk. And the 82nd hasn't been real stand up in these kind of situations. (Recall when first deployed for desert storm, 325 AIR was actually sent with NO weapons.Imagine that)

[SkeetoBite]

It's very rare that I wade into these types of conversations, but I can't stop myself on this one.

I've served on active duty in the U.S. Army and the United States Marine Corps; in peace time and war time. In the Marine Corps I was attached to a "Force in Readiness". This means we run back to the squadbay, grab our bag and get to the airfield. Ready to deploy in 20 to 40 minutes - ALL departments, including "Supply". We made it on time, every time.

I assure you that the National Gaurd is not a force in readiness. No offense to the guard, it just this isn't their role. The role they have is hard enough.

Everyone is wondering where they are, where have they been? You can't send the very people you expect to be strong and healthy and help everyone else into the fight without sending him with food, water and his/her own shelter. Otherwise, by the end of day 1, he is also seeking disaster relief.

I mapped this storm 24/7. I posted every single advisory on my website. I read the news of Max Mayfield "Pleading" with the Mayor of New Orleans on Saturday, after that same Mayor made headlines Friday by telling his people there was "no need to panic".

Get you facts straight, then save them up for a hellofa argument after we know everyone who can be saved has been saved and everyone is safe.

Sorry for yelling.

[gatorbabe79]

Complete mandatory evacuation can and should be pre-arranged. Having worked in hospitals, mass casualty plans are in place and practiced periodically. By designating and color-coding areas like big fields and farmlands to put up tents, port-o-lets, etc., you can pre-stage where each neighborhood would be situated. That can also help locating loved ones later. I remember going to Jazz fest years ago and the place was enormous. Certainly the military knows how to construct temporary housing and could provide lists of necessary equipment. Just like the government has stockpiled stuff for another terrorist attack like MREs and medical supplies and sat phones, this can be done for regions at risk. Buses of all types can be predesignated to go to particular places with special needs and remove the people if necessary and take them out to color-coded areas. Even the poorest people deserve to know ahead of time how the city has planned and provided for them in case of emergencies. The door in your hotel room always shows the way out. A simple laminated card for each home could do the same.

As the saying goes, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

(Yeah, I know, and hindsight is always 20/20)

[loon]

I do dsiagree on the shoot back part. The Rules of Engagement should allow for return fire for self-defense.

However, I would think in almost every case, "shoot back" and "self-defense" would be one in the same. I would think if someone is firing at me, and I'm not dead, then they missed, and in self-defense, I would shoot to kill, or be killed. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just am trying to decipher your difference between "shoot back" and self-defence.

On a side note, I think this discussion has actually been a good one, I know the blame game has gotten old and we didn't want to get political, but people need to vent, and since we have the Aftermath forum now, I think this is somewhat healthy, and I for one like to see peoples true opinions on the situation at hand. I follow the camp of a failure at the local and state level myself, and fully agree with the mand evac's being way too late, even though Max gave a pretty stern warning.

loon

[Brent]

I follow the camp of a failure at the local and state level myself, and fully agree with the mand evac's being way too late, even though Max gave a pretty stern warning.

Yep... I was virtually yelling at the TV Saturday when there was no mandatory evacuation ordered... it came FAR TOO LATE.

[gratefulnole]

Supposedly, the 82nd Airborne is going in tomorrow. That will be a tremendous help! They are definitely the best troops for rapid deployment and are more than willing to land/parachute right into the thick of battle and take a high casualty rate doing so.

I have a question about NO. Is New Orleans gov't and the Parish of Orleans gov't one and the same? In the area of New Orleans there is the parishes of Orleans, St. Bernard, Jefferson, St. Charles and the northern tip of Plaquemines. I am asking because some are partially blaming the Mayor of New Orleans when there are all those different parishes and other cities such as Metairie, Kenner, Gretna and Chalmette in the immediate area which are all affected. It seems to me then it would be much more a state of Louisiana situation than a city of New Orleans situation. Is it that the media keeps saying New Orleans because it is the urban center and tourist destination when in actuality it is a whole host of different local gov'ts involved?

[Raebie]

I'm just gonna follow mf_dolphin around for abit because I need a touch of sanity after leaving the last bulletin board I normally frequent. That, and have a stiff drink.

Raebie, stalker

[MBismyPlayground]

Supposedly, the 82nd Airborne is going in tomorrow. That will be a tremendous help! They are definitely the best troops for rapid deployment and are more than willing to land/parachute right into the thick of battle and take a high casualty rate doing so.

I have a question about NO. Is New Orleans gov't and the Parish of Orleans gov't one and the same? In the area of New Orleans there is the parishes of Orleans, St. Bernard, Jefferson, St. Charles and the northern tip of Plaquemines. I am asking because some are partially blaming the Mayor of New Orleans when there are all those different parishes and other cities such as Metairie, Kenner, Gretna and Chalmette in the immediate area which are all affected. It seems to me then it would be much more a state of Louisiana situation than a city of New Orleans situation. Is it that the media keeps saying New Orleans because it is the urban center and tourist destination when in actuality it is a whole host of different local gov'ts involved?

82nd tomorrow?????? I doubt they will jump in when there is a up and running airfield. AF MET, where are you??? HE would know this one.
Son in law was told weekend or beginning of the week.....They must be really pushing now. Hmmmm

[jasons2k]

On those points you are so right as I have stated many times.
Although, they can deploy to LA but will not be able to enforce the law. As hubbie said to the current news of the deployment of Bragg soldiers to LA, this will suck if it is not martial law, They can be shot at but not shoot back.
I must have missed the part where a DIVISION was disscussed.
heck, I have never seen a whole division deployed all at once. There is always someone in the rear to take care of any other needs.

But, accordingly, they will be coming......guns loaded or not.
Was really hoping it was guns loaded.....of course, who knows what is going on behind the scenes. I think the fact that there is a lack in the amount of local/state police force, this may change up the senario.

No problem. The reason you haven't seen a whole division deployed at once is that we can't do it except by ship I spent my time at Bragg during the Iranian hostage crisis. I agree with your husband, if martial law is not declared it's going to be a circle jerk of the highest magnitude. I do dsiagree on the shoot back part. The Rules of Engagement should allow for return fire for self-defense.

Hey MF - I have to say I do agree with you 100% on this one

[jasons2k]

I follow the camp of a failure at the local and state level myself, and fully agree with the mand evac's being way too late, even though Max gave a pretty stern warning.

Yep... I was virtually yelling at the TV Saturday when there was no mandatory evacuation ordered... it came FAR TOO LATE.

I agree with you too Brent, and that one does fall squarely with the locals.

[Brent]

I follow the camp of a failure at the local and state level myself, and fully agree with the mand evac's being way too late, even though Max gave a pretty stern warning.

Yep... I was virtually yelling at the TV Saturday when there was no mandatory evacuation ordered... it came FAR TOO LATE.

I agree with you too Brent, and that one does fall squarely with the locals.

I was GRAVELY concerned when, even on Sunday, I was watching traffic cams and saw a very pathetic, low number of cars on the road.

I think people by then had realized it was about too late to leave and they might as well stay.

[artist]

so many people interviewed (particularly the elderly) gave the same reason over and oever for not evacuating - "We went thru Camile and survived so we knew we would survive this as well." and then stating how wrong they were.

[Brent]

so many people interviewed (particularly the elderly) gave the same reason over and oever for not evacuating - "We went thru Camile and survived so we knew we would survive this as well." and then stating how wrong they were.

I know... I saw the same thing and that was when I knew this was going to be worse than any recent hurricane in terms of deaths. I didn't expect the junk that is going on now though...

[RichG]

I have stated this before I will again. When historians look at this years down the road they will see that the war was lost before it was ever fought. The city was lost before the storm reached the Gulf. There was no planning on the part of state and local officals. Thats it, no planning, no plans, no training of local officals as to what to do, no backup comm equipment, no training exercises. Heck the superdome was not even certified to go through a cat 4 storm! Battles are won before they are ever fought for usually one reason and one reason only. Training training training. Everyinthing you see now are a result of that failure. You can just blink and make it go away. Actions have conquences. Or in this case inaction have catistrophic consquences.

[themusk]

In principle, the Feds are in charge of coordinating the relief effort.

I've been looking around to try to find something that explains the idea of comprehensive emergency management and who is coordinating what. I know I have a flowchart somewhere.

Here's what I could find in FEMA's introductory Emergency Manager course as currently available on the web:

"If the President declares an emergency or a major disaster, FEMA will name a federal coordinating officer (FCO) to coordinate federal assistance, and the governor will appoint a state coordinating officer (SCO). The SCO is your primary liaison with the FCO.

Once on the scene, the FCO is responsible for an initial appraisal of needed assistance. The FCO is also responsible for coordinating all the federal agencies and programs involved in assistance. In most cases, volunteer groups, such as the American Red Cross, the Salvation Army, and the Mennonite Disaster Service, will coordinate their private relief efforts with FEMA as well.

The officials will set up a disaster field office (DFO), usually staffed with federal, state, and local officials as well as representatives from the private relief organizations. A DFO provides one location from which various agencies coordinate assistance efforts."

I'm almost certain that the flowchart I have is from an older version of this course that I have somewhere on my shelves (where, is the big question). If I can find it, I'll run it through my scanner and post it to this thread.

A general summary of all of this is that there is a well-thought out management system theoretically in place to, in principle, coordinate every bit of this: the incident command system and integrated emergency management. The system is tested, and I'm happy to trust my life and safety to the system. When it functions it functions with military precision (not surprisingly since it's backbone, in major disasters, is often formed of military (regular and national guard) and paramilitary (police) forces.

There's only one problem: it's clearly not functioning here, possibly because of poor planning, possibly because of the communications breakdown, possibly because of politics, possibly because of insufficient resources, probably because of a mix of all of the above and more.

[Brent]

I have stated this before I will again. When historians look at this years down the road they will see that the war was lost before it was ever fought. The city was lost before the storm reached the Gulf. There was no planning on the part of state and local officals. Thats it, no planning, no plans, no training of local officals as to what to do, no backup comm equipment, no training exercises. Heck the superdome was not even certified to go through a cat 4 storm!

Precisely and the concern for as long as New Orleans has been highly populated was that a major hurricane would plow into the city and killed tens of thousands... and it has happened. It's been coming for decades and decades but there was not much of a plan.

[artist]

well - the state FCO that the Governor appointed did not ask for enough ehlp - I would assume it was Lt. Kevin Kowan since he stated he had only asked for 2000 ( found out the correct #) national guard be on stand by. His title with the state is head of Homeland Security. He stated earlier that they had failed in their planning.

[HouTXmetro]

Well all levels of Government failed!!! What really irks me is the Federal Goverment cut Millions from New Orleans Levee projects. I get so sick when I hear the President claim we never imagined those levees were going to break. News Flash! Enginerring experts and others were begging for years for the funding to upgrade the Levees and pumps yet the President slashed their budget. The fact is we knew this could happen but had other priorities like giving massive tax cuts to those who didn't needed. This is sick