ATL: TROPICAL DEPRESSION BONNIE - DISCUSSION

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supercane
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Re: Re:

#1421 Postby supercane » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:16 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:If the system has increased in thunderstorm activity, it has gotten better organized. 97L has been getting better organized all day.


While it is true that increased convection is often associated with better organization, it is not the only explanation. Diurnal variation with a noctural/dawn maximum or increased divergence on the SE quadrant of the ULL may also explain the blowup of thunderstorms. If the storms are persistent, then we've got ourselves a ballgame, but waiting another 6 hrs won't hurt. If 97L had truly been getting better organized all day with an obvious LCC and westerly winds, then people would not have fallen off the bandwagon this evening. Patience is key.

Weatherfreak000 wrote:No doubt the NHC is playing the conservative route. Tomorrow we will be on our way with cyclogenesis in the ATL.


I don't get this criticism; it's too simplistic. When verifying anything, there is a balance between the probability of detection (POD) and false alarms rates (FAR). If you're worried about public perception and want to be "conservative" and not miss any developing system, as you attribute the NHC to doing, keeping your formation probability high would be the best way to improve the POD. Realize, however, that this would be paid for by decreasing the FAR, making people less likely to trust your numbers as you would "cry-wolf" more often.
Last edited by supercane on Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

#1422 Postby fci » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:17 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:
supercane wrote:
Weatherfreak000 wrote:The TWO wording says its increased in organization but it's still at 40%? I don't agree with the NHC here.


Reread it again. It says that the thunderstorms have increased, but does not say that the system itself has become more organized, explicity mentioning that convection is displaced east of the trough axis due to shear. As for disagreeing with the NHC, only time will tell.



If the system has increased in thunderstorm activity, it has gotten better organized. 97L has been getting better organized all day.


No doubt the NHC is playing the conservative route. Tomorrow we will be on our way with cyclogenesis in the ATL


Data from the dropsondes must have indicated that 97L is not headed to an area conducive to development so in spite of some increase in thunderstorms, the system more than likely (60%) will not intensify into a tropical cyclone in the next 48 hours. I don't think it has anything to do with politics or being conservative. I think that the forecaster is forecasting what they think is going to happen based on the science.
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Florida1118

Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1423 Postby Florida1118 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:41 am

So...is it worth staying up and watching or not? :double:
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1424 Postby SouthFloridawx » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:48 am

Florida1118 wrote:So...is it worth staying up and watching or not? :double:


Don't squander your precious sleeping time on this storm tonight. You may need that extra rest for tomorrow night. :wink: Who knows what might happen overnight. IMO and experience... like I'm about to do... I am going to bed. Wake up and see what it looks like in the morning...
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1425 Postby supercane » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:50 am

:uarrow: Short answer, it depends. :) I wouldn't stay up even if I lived in the Keys or south Florida, because this would be a TD at most when you wake up tomorrow (and more likely still just a wave without a LLC), and there would still be plenty of time to prepare. Just my opinion, though. I admit to staying up for such systems when I was younger. :P
Last edited by supercane on Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1426 Postby chzzdekr81 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:50 am

Florida1118 wrote:So...is it worth staying up and watching or not? :double:

Depends on what you are staying up to see. If you want to stay up to see if this becomes a TD overnight, I think it would be a good idea to go to bed. If you want to see the model runs, stay up.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1427 Postby WeatherEmperor » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:57 am

Is the Recon scheduled to fly into 97L during the day on Thursday?

<RICKY>
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1428 Postby supercane » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:01 am

Preliminarily yes for this afternoon, but subject to cancellation by the NHC later this morning if the system does not look like it will develop imminently. POD for today issued yesterday:

000
NOUS42 KNHC 211500
WEATHER RECONNAISSANCE FLIGHTS
CARCAH, NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER, MIAMI, FL.
1100 AM EDT WED 21 JULY 2010
SUBJECT: TROPICAL CYCLONE PLAN OF THE DAY (TCPOD)
VALID 22/1100Z TO 23/1100Z JULY 2010
TCPOD NUMBER.....10-051

I. ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS
1. SUSPECT AREA (NORTH OF CUBA)
FLIGHT ONE -- TEAL 70
A. 22/1800Z
B. AFXXX 02BBA INVEST
C. 22/1430Z
D. 23.0N 76.0W
E. 22/1700Z TO 21/2300Z
F. SFC TO 10,000 FT

FLIGHT TWO -- NOAA 49
A. 23/0000Z
B. NOAA9 03BBA SURV
C. 22/1730Z
D. NA
E. NA
F. 41,000 TO 45,000 FT

FLIGHT THREE -- TEAL 71
A. 23/0600Z, 1200Z
B. AFXXX 0403A CYCLONE
C. 23/0300Z
D. 24.5.0N 78.5.0W
E. 23/0500Z TO 23/1200Z
F. SFC TO 15,000 FT

2. SUCCEEDING DAY OUTLOOK: BEGIN 3-HRLY FIXES AT 23/1500Z
IF SYSTEM DEVELOPS. A POSSIBLE G-IV MISSION FOR 24/0000Z

3. NOTE: THE AF MISSIONS TASKED FOR 21/1800Z, 22/06-1200Z
WERE CANX BY NHC AT 21/1130Z. THE GIV MISSION TASKED FOR
21/1730Z WILL FLY.

II. PACIFIC REQUIREMENTS
1. NEGATIVE RECONNAISSANCE REQUIREMENTS.
2. OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY.....NEGATIVE.
WVW

Taking my own advice and going to bed. Let's see if 97L maintains convection into the morning, and if NHC decides recon will fly.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1429 Postby blp » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:06 am

22/0545 UTC 20.7N 74.0W T1.0/1.0 97L -- Atlantic

Previous
21/2345 UTC 21.1N 72.9W T1.0/1.0 97L
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#1430 Postby chzzdekr81 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:21 am

Wow... Models shift west again... I better keep an eye on this.
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Weatherfreak000

#1431 Postby Weatherfreak000 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:21 am

Last satellite image shows a very impressive 97L. We should see a totally different storm by tomorrow morning.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1432 Postby blp » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:32 am

I know the SSD position has it moving W but this thing looks like it stalled or has slowed down significantly?
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Re:

#1433 Postby chzzdekr81 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:40 am

Weatherfreak000 wrote:Last satellite image shows a very impressive 97L. We should see a totally different storm by tomorrow morning.

You got that right.
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xcool22

#1434 Postby xcool22 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:43 am

anticyclone move to 97L ...
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1435 Postby Wx_Warrior » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:57 am

Not impressive enough. Going all in this wont be a major. No flip flopping from me.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1436 Postby tailgater » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:57 am

The 24 hr shear tendency loop for 5 days shows in my interpretation that 97L has a small anticyclone building over the eastern half of the system and looks like it trying to expand westward, the next 24 hrs. should tell a whole lot about what 97L might do.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1437 Postby abajan » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:03 am

CourierPR wrote:Wind shear can help to ventilate a system under the right circumstances.
Yep. If memory serves correct, Hurricane Allen back in 1980 actually became stronger due to wind shear.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1438 Postby HURAKAN » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:04 am

Image

Latest
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#1439 Postby KWT » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:05 am

Looking like the westerly solution is going to come off...and if it does that'll be 7 out of 8 of the last storms globally to be west of the model consensus...man thats a hard trend to deny now.

Shear still looks too strong to me at the moment and in fact convection is starting to get shunted back east again in the last 2hrs.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 97L - DISCUSSION

#1440 Postby Recurve » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:08 am

Appears to have stopped completely -- has the convection found another focus or the wave decelerated because of the ULL?

Figured I better check early this morning after watching a lot of loops last night and it really seems stuck in the same place -- but still no sign of organization in terms of a low center. Lucky so far for Florida as it seems to be running out of time *if* it hasn't stalled for whatever reason.

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